*** Official IOWA STATE Vs #2 Baylor Game(Day) Thread ***

[Halincandenza]

Last night and the KU game Tyrese may have tried to take a bit too much on himself, last night in particular, his decision making was iffy. He seemed a bit rushed. I think he just puts too much pressure on himself. It'd be nice to run a few sets for him where he gets easy shots, maybe even off the ball to relax him. It's tough for him, we can't beat teams like this unless he scores but it also kind of takes him away from what he does best.It's not like he had a horrible game, he still had 9 dimes but he was just a little out of sorts.

We saw similar with Monte his SR year when there was more pressure on him to carry the load, it's easier said than done to just switch your mindset, especially with guys like Monte and Tyrese, they kind of have to battle their instincts and know when to be selfish. Tyrese probably has a bigger hill to climb in this regard because he just doesn't have as much around him and he's two years younger than Monte was when he went through the same deal.

Totally, Monte had time to develop an offensive repertoire he could go to and Hailburton is still developing in that aspect so when teams take certain things away it makes is very difficult but I think some more guys could help him out when he drives by moving and not standing still. The only person I have seen consistently do that is Lewis when he is in. Everytime, Haliburton drives he tries to make himself available. Most of the time the other guards just stand on the perimeter waiting for a pass.

 

[Statefan10]

Last night and the KU game Tyrese may have tried to take a bit too much on himself, last night in particular, his decision making was iffy. He seemed a bit rushed. I think he just puts too much pressure on himself. It'd be nice to run a few sets for him where he gets easy shots, maybe even off the ball to relax him. It's tough for him, we can't beat teams like this unless he scores but it also kind of takes him away from what he does best.It's not like he had a horrible game, he still had 9 dimes but he was just a little out of sorts.

We saw similar with Monte his SR year when there was more pressure on him to carry the load, it's easier said than done to just switch your mindset, especially with guys like Monte and Tyrese, they kind of have to battle their instincts and know when to be selfish. Tyrese probably has a bigger hill to climb in this regard because he just doesn't have as much around him and he's two years younger than Monte was when he went through the same deal.

Yeah I think Monte thought that he was going to have to be "the guy" his senior year, and at the beginning of the year seemed to press quite a bit instead of letting the game come to him. Monte was at his best when he got other guys involved first, but yes, Monte had a ton more talent his senior year as well as being two years older. Although Tyrese is incredibly talented, he's still a baby. He's a true sophomore who has the entire weight of the team on his back. I wish we'd be able to get the opportunity to see him when he's a senior but unfortunately that may not be the case.

 

[MeowingCows]

Wonder if Drew will get offered the Spurs job when Pop retires. I sure hope so.

People talk about what Fred did when he took over a program, which was impressive.

Drew took over a program that had a murder situation and was banned from playing part of a season.

Amazing job. Now he needs to go to the NBA, or maybe UNC when Roy retires after this year

It also took Drew 5 years just to post a winning record. People forgot how long he's been there, 2003 was a long time ago. Baylor was very patient in letting him build it up and he largely succeeded for their standards. Hasn't really gotten over his hump yet (hasn't passed the S16 since 2012 and has missed the tourney twice since then), but he's otherwise been fairly consistent both in system and in results.

 

[Clonefan32]

Last night and the KU game Tyrese may have tried to take a bit too much on himself, last night in particular, his decision making was iffy. He seemed a bit rushed. I think he just puts too much pressure on himself. It'd be nice to run a few sets for him where he gets easy shots, maybe even off the ball to relax him. It's tough for him, we can't beat teams like this unless he scores but it also kind of takes him away from what he does best.It's not like he had a horrible game, he still had 9 dimes but he was just a little out of sorts.

We saw similar with Monte his SR year when there was more pressure on him to carry the load, it's easier said than done to just switch your mindset, especially with guys like Monte and Tyrese, they kind of have to battle their instincts and know when to be selfish. Tyrese probably has a bigger hill to climb in this regard because he just doesn't have as much around him and he's two years younger than Monte was when he went through the same deal.

This is why I got a little nervous when I heard the "told Tyrese he has to be more aggressive" news. I think that's great conceptually-- he's obviously or best player we need him to be assertive. But I also don't think he is a "go get us a bucket" type of player. His genius is in playing the way he's always played-- driving, finding guys and hitting open shots.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd be reluctant to try to complicate the way Tyrese sees the game. Just let him play his game.

 

[Statefan10]

It also took Drew 5 years just to post a winning record. People forgot how long he's been there, 2003 was a long time ago. Baylor was very patient in letting him build it up and he largely succeeded for their standards. Hasn't really gotten over his hump yet (hasn't passed the S16 since 2012 and has missed the tourney twice since then), but he's otherwise been fairly consistent both in system and in results.

This is not me saying Prohm is as good of a coach as Scott Drew, because I really don't think he is. But if everyone would take a look at Drew's records and accomplishments since he's gotten to Baylor, I think a lot of people would be surprised. I know he was coming into a very different situation, but his first 4 years he had a terrible record. Only got above 10 wins one time and even then was still below .500. Then for every other year the next 6 years, he took the team to the NCAA tournament.

 

[MeowingCows]

This is not me saying Prohm is as good of a coach as Scott Drew, because I really don't think he is. But if everyone would take a look at Drew's records and accomplishments since he's gotten to Baylor, I think a lot of people would be surprised. I know he was coming into a very different situation, but his first 4 years he had a terrible record. Only got above 10 wins one time and even then was still below .500. Then for every other year the next 6 years, he took the team to the NCAA tournament.

Drew has shown to be able to scheme well and build a roster well, he was always docked for his in-game management and sometimes throwing away winnable chances. Even some of that seems to have developed better as of late.

 

[heitclone]

This is why I got a little nervous when I heard the "told Tyrese he has to be more aggressive" news. I think that's great conceptually-- he's obviously or best player we need him to be assertive. But I also don't think he is a "go get us a bucket" type of player. His genius is in playing the way he's always played-- driving, finding guys and hitting open shots.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd be reluctant to try to complicate the way Tyrese sees the game. Just let him play his game.

I think its a tough balance. I also think because he's being so highly regarded, people just assume Tyrese can do anything. It's not like he can shoot or score but if you are looking for areas he needs to improve, those would be pretty high on the list. It's complicated because in a sense, he's being asked to put more emphasis on the weakest part of his game due to the team lacking other guys who are as capable as he is on offense.

I think I'd just like to see him used a bit different but I'm not sure exactly how that would work. Going back to Monte, he had developed that mid range baseline jumper (like he put KU to bed with at AFH), that was almost automatic, Tyrese isn't as developed yet, he doesn't have a shot/play that's as consistent as Monte was with that jumper. I think the trick is finding ways to get him in position to make plays he's comfortable making, a la Monte on the baseline. Right now I don't think we are doing that, he's much more comfortable as a passer in the PnR and the pull up 25 footers just aren't his game. With the way teams are playing him, that's about all teams are giving him now.

 

[Halincandenza]

I think if Hailuburton struggles some more in conference he could see his stock drop out of the lottery and that increases the chances he could come back although still wouldn't be great odds, but better odds nonetheless.

 

[SCyclone]

I don't think anyone on the team is accepting failure. I do think some fans are accepting it, however.

We're not accepting it. We're just dealing with it differently than you are.

 

[jcisuclones]

I don't think anyone on the team is accepting failure. I do think some fans are accepting it, however.

@aauummm so you think that the guys on the team are accepting failure?

 

[jcisuclones]

We're not accepting it. We're just dealing with it differently than you are.

Same fans who wanted to keep Paul Rhoads around even after the K-state debacle...

 

[jcisuclones]

@IASTATE07 congrats on being the first person to ever be added to my ignore list.

 

[Statefan10]

Drew has shown to be able to scheme well and build a roster well, he was always docked for his in-game management and sometimes throwing away winnable chances. Even some of that seems to have developed better as of late.

I think it just goes to show you that success isn't instant nor is there a straight line to get there. Everyone wants instant gratification and it rarely comes that way. Although as Iowa State fans we've suffered through some miserable seasons in both basketball and football but think of how many coaches we've had since 2000 in both sports? We've had 4 in football and 5 in basketball. That is a lot of turn around.

I'm not saying we don't want more as fans, and I'm not saying we should get complacent, but we haven't had it THAT bad lately. Campbell flipped the program from being one of the worst in CFB to being talked about nationally in a little over a year. Prohm takes over a great roster and although we didn't get better, we didn't get much worse either and over the course of Prohm's years here, we've had some pretty damn fun seasons. It could be much MUCH worse as fans.

So lets see how the rest of the season goes, see how Prohm handles the losses of some guys and who he can possibly bring in to help for next year. Let's also wait and see how the team looks next year with these incoming guys because from everything I'm reading they are all pretty stellar. We are going to look COMPLETELY different next year. 6'5" PG, 6'6" wing, 6'7" wing, 7'1" post who can shoot the three well. Be critical, be mad that we're struggling this year, but also be hopeful. If we're not good at all next year and things look really gloomy, I have no doubt Pollard will make a good decision.

 

[fsanford]

It also took Drew 5 years just to post a winning record. People forgot how long he's been there, 2003 was a long time ago. Baylor was very patient in letting him build it up and he largely succeeded for their standards. Hasn't really gotten over his hump yet (hasn't passed the S16 since 2012 and has missed the tourney twice since then), but he's otherwise been fairly consistent both in system and in results.

Forgot how long he has been there.

Looking back I believe most of the team that remained transferred out, without loss eligibility or having to take a redshirt. Guys like John Lucas III and others left.

So when Drew got there were literally no players

Also Baylor itself only allowed 7 scholarship athletes on the roster for 2 years
I wonder that is why Drew implemented the zone, you get in foul trouble you have nobody to play


Throw in no non-conference schedule 1 year

I am surprised he turned it around in 5 really. They did not get the death penalty but they got a near death penalty.

More and more really appreciate what this guys has done.

According to Wikipedia, ISU, since Baylor has been in the big 12, is like 2-15 or some such thing playing in Waco. (This was through last season)

I cannot remember but we might even have a better record at Kansas during that same time period vs playing in Waco

Drew leaving the Big 12 would not make me sad

 

[rochclone]

This is not me saying Prohm is as good of a coach as Scott Drew, because I really don't think he is. But if everyone would take a look at Drew's records and accomplishments since he's gotten to Baylor, I think a lot of people would be surprised. I know he was coming into a very different situation, but his first 4 years he had a terrible record. Only got above 10 wins one time and even then was still below .500. Then for every other year the next 6 years, he took the team to the NCAA tournament.

I think its incredibly difficult to compare what Drew walked into (knowingly of course) with what was left to CSP. They aren't even close. Scott Drew has averaged 23.5 wins since Year 5 and I imagine that will only tick upward with this year's squad. He will have made the tournament in 9 of the last 13 years (including this year). In the other 4 years he went to the NIT three years (One championship and an additional appearance in the Championship game). Even in his worse year (after the first four years) they went 18-13 and just didn't accept a bid to the NIT.

 

[LanningIsBakersDaddy]

This is why I got a little nervous when I heard the "told Tyrese he has to be more aggressive" news. I think that's great conceptually-- he's obviously or best player we need him to be assertive. But I also don't think he is a "go get us a bucket" type of player. His genius is in playing the way he's always played-- driving, finding guys and hitting open shots.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd be reluctant to try to complicate the way Tyrese sees the game. Just let him play his game.

I got a little nervous too, and I think Tyrese forced some shots in this game. At the same time though, the kid still had 9 assists. I'm okay with him forcing shots at times, but I never want him to get to the point where his passing is decreased because of how aggressively he is hunting his shot.

 

[heitclone]

Drew has shown to be able to scheme well and build a roster well, he was always docked for his in-game management and sometimes throwing away winnable chances. Even some of that seems to have developed better as of late.

This would be my biggest compliment for Drew, his willingness and ability to get guys to red shirt is huge for that program. They recruit decent but player development is how they win. Last night they mentioned how he always "stays old", having kids in the program for 2/3 years without contributing and then developing into a rotation player is easier said than done but it sure works out for them.

We've had back to back coaches that more or less refused to red shirt and the idea that good players don't red shirt or good programs don't red shirt seems to be the common theme around here but looking at our league, we're almost the only team who doesn't red shirt kids. Whether it happened through traditional means or via a sit out transfer year, its no coincidence that last years Texas Tech team started 4 5th year seniors and this years Baylor team starts 4 guys who for one reason or another took a RS year.

We're in year 5 of Prohm and only two guys from his first 3 recruiting classes are still around, really only 1 of those guys left on positive terms. We're not the kind of program that can simply reload every year, these types of season are inevitable in this league with this much roster turnover. Looking at a program like Baylor, they've figured out how to avoid that for the most part.

 

[Statefan10]

I think its incredibly difficult to compare what Drew walked into (knowingly of course) with what was left to CSP. They aren't even close. Scott Drew has averaged 23.5 wins since Year 5 and I imagine that will only tick upward with this year's squad. He will have made the tournament in 9 of the last 13 years (including this year). In the other 4 years he went to the NIT three years (One championship and an additional appearance in the Championship game). Even in his worse year (after the first four years) they went 18-13 and just didn't accept a bid to the NIT.

Yes, they certainly were in completely different situations, and it definitely shows considering Prohm has taken Iowa State to the tournament 3 out of 4 years, has one S16 appearance, and 2 Big 12 Tournament Titles. But even after Drew's 5th year, it was every other year for 6 years in which he was taking his teams to the tournament. In Drew's first 10 years, he went to the tournament 3 times and there was a year between each of those appearances. He was given a lot of time to develop that program into his own and I don't doubt the AD was looking at his 11th year as a "make or break year".

I wasn't bringing this up to say Coach Prohm is as good as Coach Drew, because I don't think that's true. I was merely saying that Coach Drew didn't build the program over night. It took years for him to get the program to where it currently is at.

 

[rochclone]

Yes, they certainly were in completely different situations, and it definitely shows considering Prohm has taken Iowa State to the tournament 3 out of 4 years, has one S16 appearance, and 2 Big 12 Tournament Titles. But even after Drew's 5th year, it was every other year for 6 years in which he was taking his teams to the tournament. In Drew's first 10 years, he went to the tournament 3 times and there was a year between each of those appearances. He was given a lot of time to develop that program into his own and I don't doubt the AD was looking at his 11th year as a "make or break year".

I wasn't bringing this up to say Coach Prohm is as good as Coach Drew, because I don't think that's true. I was merely saying that Coach Drew didn't build the program over night. It took years for him to get the program to where it currently is at.

And I'm not indicating that Prohm should be fired at this point. Obviously him succeeding at Iowa State and being here for the next decade would be best for the program. But what is considerably different, is the "down years" for Baylor during the years that Drew missed the NCAA. The record during the "down years" for Drew were 18-13, 23-14 and 24-15. The record wasn't below .500 like we witnessed in 17-18 and what appears to be the trending direction this year. (I hope we go 9-9 in conference but that seems unlikely at this point). My concern is multiple years in a five year straight below .500 shows significant "instability" within a program. Roster turnover, missed recruits, lack of development by some recruits, assistant coach turnover. There can be lots of reason (some good) for the "instability" but its "instability" nonetheless.

 

[Statefan10]

And I'm not indicating that Prohm should be fired at this point. Obviously him succeeding at Iowa State and being here for the next decade would be best for the program. But what is considerably different, is the "down years" for Baylor during the years that Drew missed the NCAA. The record during the "down years" for Drew were 18-13, 23-14 and 24-15. The record wasn't below .500 like we witnessed in 17-18 and what appears to be the trending direction this year. (I hope we go 9-9 in conference but that seems unlikely at this point). My concern is multiple years in a five year straight below .500 shows significant "instability" within a program. Roster turnover, missed recruits, lack of development by some recruits, assistant coach turnover. There can be lots of reason (some good) for the "instability" but its "instability" nonetheless.

I completely agree. And although it certainly is very fun and exciting that we are putting guys into the NBA every year, it's certainly a tough task to be able to rebuild a program almost every year. It's so important for Iowa State to have guys that stay the course and are with the program for more than a one or two years. Sure you can have a one and done guy thrown into the mix every year or every other year, but to sustain success we're going to need veteran players.

I realize that next year we're most likely not going to have Halliburton back, however we do bring back a lot of guys. Bolton, Solo, Conditt, Lewis, Griffin, Grill and Jackson. We also get Johnson who's a long guard and would've probably helped the team this year. Another off season for the sophomores and freshman to get bigger and stronger, better at shooting, and most importantly, chemistry. You throw into that group 4 highly recruited freshman who are all long and seem to already have Big 12 bodies, and you have the makings to be a pretty decent team. I also think we could end up being in the running for a big time grad-transfer.