*** Official IOWA STATE vs DePaul Game(Day) Thread ***

[Frak]

Watson doesn't have a consistent offensive game but has shown a few flashes, namely getting to the basket and knocking down some threes (more than streaky here).

The reason you play Watson has more to do with defense, rebounding, and ability to play in transition. There is no reason Pavs should be getting minutes over Watson. At his worst he ducks at both ends and at his best he's mediocre offensively. With Ward hurt, it would really help the defensive continuity to have a guard that can guard multiple positions, get some rebounds, and convert on a few offensive opportunities.

I bet if you were able to play Pavs and Watson 15-20 mins a game, against the same opponent and compare performance Watson would win in a landslide. Pavs isn't athletic or strong enough to keep up defensively, isn't quick enough to play in transition, and is mediocre at best as an offensive threat. Many of our defensive break downs start with Pavs when he's on the floor. With Watson you get an elite defender, an adequate rebounder for his position, and someone that can give roughly the same offensive output/efficiency as Pavs. More importantly it gives you a + weak side help/rotation defender when Milan is on the floor. Having Pavsa AND Milan on the floor at the same time is a defensive nightmare.

Man, do I ever disagree with this. What you give up defensively is easily surpassed by offensive output. Pav can actually dribble and make shots. I'd be all for playing the better defensive player and rebounder, but Watson has zero offensive game and is not a threat.

 

[ZRF]

Sorry, had to, ZRF.
I do agree that the team isn't as good, defensively, with Pav and Milan both on the floor. I think the coaches know this and accept it for the offensive value they bring. Hard to understand why this would be your post several days after that game, in which (most) everyone else thought Pav played an important role.

Milan brings offensive value, but Pavs? Using a game against Depaul, which is a terrible team, as a barometer of offensive aptitude is unwise. Prior to the Depaul game his shooting percentage, FT percentage, rebounding rate...basically everything were miserable. Like it or not our Big 12 opponents will be closer to the ESPN tourney than Depaul. Against those quality of athletes Pavs struggled on both ends, but particularly on the defensive end. He simply couldn't keep up with better athletes and or have the size and physicality to fight through screens. Time and time again our defense collapsed because of that inability. And if Milan is on the floor, which he usually is (and also needs to be) that's a massive problem.

This is reminiscent of the BRE defenders from last year that would point to a small sample size against inferior (out of conference) opponents and use it as proof of capability. Against better, more athletic opponents, BRE struggled. A lot of that was self inflicted (trying to play outside of his skillset offensively) until he started to slow down at the end of the year.

The one thing BRE has(d) going for him is height and size. He busted his ass off, improved his footwork, and has done a MUCH better job of playing within himself (and he's dunking now...HOORAY!). I'll be the first to admit I didn't think it was possible but hats off to him. With Jackson he's undersized (short), unathletic (for a P5 guard), lacks explosiveness, and struggles defensively. I don't see much in his physical profile that leads me to believe he will be anything more than a negative impact player against Big 12 quality opponents. KU, Baylor, Houston, etc will run circles around us when he's on the floor.

 

[ZRF]

Lol did you even watch the DePaul game? Pav completely changed the game with his offense in the 1st half. His defense was fine. It feels like a lot of people are taking a look at Pav and writing off his defense. He's been solid on the ball.

If you think Watson is giving us the same offensive output, you don't know ball.

No, I had a xmas party to attend to.

DePaul is a terrible team and don't doubt Jackson can hold his own against that level of competition every now and then. But I did watch all of the ESPN tourney games and he was taken to the woodshed on the defensive end repeatedly, often multiple possessions in a row. I think those opponents, and their athleticism, is a much better barometer of what he can/will do than a game against a completely feeble opponent.

If Otz plays Milan and Pavs together for sizeable minutes in Big 12 play I will go on record as saying the results will not be positive.

 

[SolarGarlic]

Milan brings offensive value, but Pavs? Using a game against Depaul, which is a terrible team, as a barometer of offensive aptitude is unwise. Prior to the Depaul game his shooting percentage, FT percentage, rebounding rate...basically everything were miserable. Like it or not our Big 12 opponents will be closer to the ESPN tourney than Depaul. Against those quality of athletes Pavs struggled on both ends, but particularly on the defensive end. He simply couldn't keep up with better athletes and or have the size and physicality to fight through screens. Time and time again our defense collapsed because of that inability. And if Milan is on the floor, which he usually is (and also needs to be) that's a massive problem.

This is reminiscent of the BRE defenders from last year that would point to a small sample size against inferior (out of conference) opponents and use it as proof of capability. Against better, more athletic opponents, BRE struggled. A lot of that was self inflicted (trying to play outside of his skillset offensively) until he started to slow down at the end of the year.

The one thing BRE has(d) going for him is height and size. He busted his ass off, improved his footwork, and has done a MUCH better job of playing within himself (and he's dunking now...HOORAY!). I'll be the first to admit I didn't think it was possible but hats off to him. With Jackson he's undersized (short), unathletic (for a P5 guard), lacks explosiveness, and struggles defensively. I don't see much in his physical profile that leads me to believe he will be anything more than a negative impact player against Big 12 quality opponents. KU, Baylor, Houston, etc will run circles around us when he's on the floor.

We've played 8 games, and Pav received significant minutes in...3 of them?

We're still figuring out roles for everyone. Pav looks like an offensive spark, and you're overstating his defensive liability.

 

[SolarGarlic]

No, I had a xmas party to attend to.

DePaul is a terrible team and don't doubt Jackson can hold his own against that level of competition every now and then. But I did watch all of the ESPN tourney games and he was taken to the woodshed on the defensive end repeatedly, often multiple possessions in a row. I think those opponents, and their athleticism, is a much better barometer of what he can/will do than a game against a completely feeble opponent.

If Otz plays Milan and Pavs together for sizeable minutes in Big 12 play I will go on record as saying the results will not be positive.

That checks out. Pav was fantastic in his role vs. DePaul.

We played a much different style against DePaul than we did in Orlando. This team is going to be worse on defense than previous Otz teams, but we have much higher upside on offense. Get used to it.

 

[ZRF]

We've played 8 games, and Pav received significant minutes in...3 of them?

We're still figuring out roles for everyone. Pav looks like an offensive spark, and you're overstating his defensive liability.

No, I'm not.

Go back and watch some of those tournament games from a week (or so) ago. He literally looked like a toddler chasing after his mom in a store. He couldn't keep up with his assignments, couldn't fight through screens, and was completely overmatched athletically and physically. Once he got beat his man either directly scored or it led to a complete defensive breakdown where guys were scrambling. Despite this happening repeatedly Otz gave him more minutes than he deserved.

Pavs looks like he plays hard which is the only thing he can control. I just don't see what the staff sees in him beyond his effort. He will struggle against most Big 12 opponents and has a limited ceiling due to his size and athleticism. It makes no sense giving Pavs 12+ minutes a game while guys like Watson and Biliew ride the bench. It makes no sense.

 

[madguy30]

No, I had a xmas party to attend to.

DePaul is a terrible team and don't doubt Jackson can hold his own against that level of competition every now and then. But I did watch all of the ESPN tourney games and he was taken to the woodshed on the defensive end repeatedly, often multiple possessions in a row. I think those opponents, and their athleticism, is a much better barometer of what he can/will do than a game against a completely feeble opponent.

If Otz plays Milan and Pavs together for sizeable minutes in Big 12 play I will go on record as saying the results will not be positive.

You think the ESPN tourney and the DePaul game can't be very differently approached situations?

Question: do you think sports is linear?

 

[madguy30]

No, I'm not.

Go back and watch some of those tournament games from a week (or so) ago. He literally looked like a toddler chasing after his mom in a store. He couldn't keep up with his assignments, couldn't fight through screens, and was completely overmatched athletically and physically. Once he got beat his man either directly scored or it led to a complete defensive breakdown where guys were scrambling. Despite this happening repeatedly Otz gave him more minutes than he deserved.

Pavs looks like he plays hard which is the only thing he can control. I just don't see what the staff sees in him beyond his effort. He will struggle against most Big 12 opponents and has a limited ceiling due to his size and athleticism. It makes no sense giving Pavs 12+ minutes a game while guys like Watson and Biliew ride the bench. It makes no sense.

What have you specifically seen from Omaha that suggest he should be getting more minutes?

 

[madguy30]

That checks out. Pav was fantastic in his role vs. DePaul.

We played a much different style against DePaul than we did in Orlando. This team is going to be worse on defense than previous Otz teams, but we have much higher upside on offense. Get used to it.

I wonder if maybe the tourney helped Pav a bit in getting some things figured out, along with the staff.

/s

 

[simply1]

No, I had a xmas party to attend to.

DePaul is a terrible team and don't doubt Jackson can hold his own against that level of competition every now and then. But I did watch all of the ESPN tourney games and he was taken to the woodshed on the defensive end repeatedly, often multiple possessions in a row. I think those opponents, and their athleticism, is a much better barometer of what he can/will do than a game against a completely feeble opponent.

If Otz plays Milan and Pavs together for sizeable minutes in Big 12 play I will go on record as saying the results will not be positive.

You must be absolutely crushed by the merciless pounding ISU gave the hoks tonight. Cry some tears in this jar please, saving them for my collection.