Rotations with Jaz Back

[Statefan10]

iSU will need someone at PG besides Lipsey and Holmes. Can Watson do this? IMO Gabe and Grill are a no . Eli is not up to task yet. Osun is great at the 5, but has no stamina. Someone has to cover this position. Unfortunately, Rob is the tallest and toughest option. He is also the worst 2 point shooter and FT shooter in about 10 years. King is improving. I think the offense has progressed where they don’t need Jazz as a high post passer/pick setter and he doesn’t drive well or create his own shots. He might actually fit better as a reserve utilizing a full court press or half court trap. I think more rotations /more energy might be the answer. Right now everyone has almost the same 3pt% - Grill38, Gabe37, Holmes37, Osun37, Jazz36.

What? Lol

 

[JP4CY]

Man, this team is a bunch of dudes. Thats all.

 

[cyclones500]

I really like Jones and he's definitely the most improved player on the team. That being said he's been downright awful the last 2 games on both ends.

When he's struggling he needs to learn to kick it back out. He wasn't even close on alot of shots against Kansas and I think was 0-9. We won't win many games if he's taking that many shots per game.

It's kind of a balancing act w/ Jones on O -- if he kicks it out too early/frequently, defenses won't worry too much about defending him on the block. So occasionally forcing something may be necessity, within in big picture. But sometimes it simply isn't there - it comes down to being able to assess on-the-fly depending on situation (easy to say as a spectator, but not from his perspective I'm sure).

 

[NoCreativity]

It's kind of a balancing act w/ Jones on O -- if he kicks it out too early/frequently, defenses won't worry too much about defending him on the block. So occasionally forcing something may be necessity, within in big picture. But sometimes it simply isn't there - it comes down to being able to assess on-the-fly depending on situation (easy to say as a spectator, but not from his perspective I'm sure).

Yeah, I'm not saying he should never shoot, but there were multiple times against Kansas where the defense sagged 3 or even 4 guys on him and he still tried to take all of them on.

 

[ZRF]

If you extrapolate Jones’ number to 36 minutes/game, he will average 13.2 points and 7.6 rebounds per game. Where were all these people who trash Jones at every opportunity when other ISU big men were missing more bunnies than Jones?

This stat is irrelevant when Osun's numbers (and impact) blow BRE's away and Tre King is showing he can adequately guard just about every position on the floor (his size and long arms allow him to guard even the post against many Big 12 teams).

The reality is we often have better players and better options when we need minutes. BRE can be effective against less agressive (trapping teams) and when he shows in the the mood to make quick moves. In this league however, he is poorly suited to go up against KU, Texas, Baylor, OU and possibly KSU. TCU seems more willing to let Lampkin guard the post himself so BRE can actually make his moves.

He should be no more than a 10 minute a game player, strictly playing as rest and foul trouble dictate. If Osun could stay out of foul trouble and handle 40 minutes a game I'd never take him off the floor (as he's a game changer other teams have a hard time handling).

 

[ZRF]

So essentially what you’re saying is that you don’t agree with the rotations that have netted us 14-3 and 5-1 in conference? Lol

I would say I don't agree with Jones averaging 18 minutes a game. Some of our success has been in spite of his play, not because of it. There have been a few games were Osun was taken out without being in foul trouble and I don't agree with that move (when it happens). At all.

 

[bosco]

I would say I don't agree with Jones averaging 18 minutes a game. Some of our success has been in spite of his play, not because of it. There have been a few games were Osun was taken out without being in foul trouble and I don't agree with that move (when it happens). At all.

I'm sure the coaches would like to play Shoon more but he isn't up to it physically plus his defensive rotations aren't as good as Jones. They are timing his subbing so he's fresh towards the end of the game. It's not about how many mins Jones plays is about limiting his attempts to about 4 a game.

 

[Pharmacy99]

This stat is irrelevant when Osun's numbers (and impact) blow BRE's away and Tre King is showing he can adequately guard just about every position on the floor (his size and long arms allow him to guard even the post against many Big 12 teams).

The reality is we often have better players and better options when we need minutes. BRE can be effective against less agressive (trapping teams) and when he shows in the the mood to make quick moves. In this league however, he is poorly suited to go up against KU, Texas, Baylor, OU and possibly KSU. TCU seems more willing to let Lampkin guard the post himself so BRE can actually make his moves.

He should be no more than a 10 minute a game player, strictly playing as rest and foul trouble dictate. If Osun could stay out of foul trouble and handle 40 minutes a game I'd never take him off the floor (as he's a game changer other teams have a hard time handling).

When Osun is healthy, he should play as many minutes as he can. Osun is a much better player than Jones. We had big men who were worse than Jones in the past but people didn’t trash them like Jones.

 

[ZRF]

I'm sure the coaches would like to play Shoon more but he isn't up to it physically plus his defensive rotations aren't as good as Jones. They are timing his subbing so he's fresh towards the end of the game. It's not about how many mins Jones plays is about limiting his attempts to about 4 a game.

Where is this coming from?

With the Bonnies he was averaging 30+ minutes a game but is only at 17 with us. I find it laughable people are suggesting he's not "up to it physically" when he's play far more minutes throughout his entire career. I get the times where his 1-2 stupid fouls a game put him in foul trouble, but there have been times he wasn't in foul trouble, and being extremely effective, yet he was taken out for Jones.

Our team is infinitely better when Osun in on the floor. When Bill Self, one of the best coaches in the game, bring you up specifically you know that's a player coaches are accounting for. Nobody is has to account for Jones. Nobody.

 

[Statefan10]

I would say I don't agree with Jones averaging 18 minutes a game. Some of our success has been in spite of his play, not because of it. There have been a few games were Osun was taken out without being in foul trouble and I don't agree with that move (when it happens). At all.

I would love for Osun to play more but there are times when he gets gassed and it’s a good thing to get him out of there. Think about how intense we play defense and also how hard our bigs have to work against teams that ball screen a lot and we switch.

Bob has really struggled the last few games and I hope as the season progresses Shoon eats into those minutes, but it’s unwise to think Shoon can play the same amount of minutes he could at St Bonnie’s. This isn’t the A-10 anymore.

 

[bosco]

Where is this coming from?

With the Bonnies he was averaging 30+ minutes a game but is only at 17 with us. I find it laughable people are suggesting he's not "up to it physically" when he's play far more minutes throughout his entire career. I get the times where his 1-2 stupid fouls a game put him in foul trouble, but there have been times he wasn't in foul trouble, and being extremely effective, yet he was taken out for Jones.

Our team is infinitely better when Osun in on the floor. When Bill Self, one of the best coaches in the game, bring you up specifically you know that's a player coaches are accounting for. Nobody is has to account for Jones. Nobody.

Guessing the Bonnie's defensive scheme didn't tax him as much. He was sucking wind after 5 mins of game time. When he tires he slows down on his defensive rotations. I don't disagree that this team is better with a high energy Shoon. This team's defense breaks down with a tired Shoon. We want a fresh Shoon at the end of the game.

 

[madguy30]

What? Lol

ISU has gone from us not knowing if there would be a PG to having two guys that can more than get it done and we've got folks not happy about it.

Drink.

 

[madguy30]

I would love for Osun to play more but there are times when he gets gassed and it’s a good thing to get him out of there. Think about how intense we play defense and also how hard our bigs have to work against teams that ball screen a lot and we switch.

Bob has really struggled the last few games and I hope as the season progresses Shoon eats into those minutes, but it’s unwise to think Shoon can play the same amount of minutes he could at St Bonnie’s. This isn’t the A-10 anymore.

And it's TJ ball. TJ ball means emptying the tank while you're on the floor so someone spotting is needed.

Jones is struggling but he keeps at it and I thought he did a nice job of keeping Carr uncomfortable last night on a couple of switches. It has to be pretty awful for opponents to have the back up be that frenetic.

Him smiling about Holmes trying to sneak in for FTs late and then hitting one was underrated.

 

[JimDogRock]

Let's take a look at where Jaz's minutes went.
I'm only looking at P6 games, because minutes get screwy during the games against small schools. So, there are 5 games before Jaz's injury and 6 games after.

	Jaren Holmes	Gabe Kalscheur	Caleb Grill	Osun Osunniyi	Robert Jones	Tamin Lipsey	Aljaz Kunc	Hason Ward	Tre King	Demarion Watson
AVG Pre-Jaz Inj	30.8​	29.4​	33.6​	18​	19.8​	25.8​	30.4​	8.8​		8​
AVG Post-Jaz Inj	31.6667​	35.6667​	35​	19.8333​	17.5​	28.8333​	0​	4​	16​	11.3333​
Difference in Minutes	0.86667​	6.26667​	1.4​	1.83333​	-2.3​	3.03333​		-4.8​	16​	3.33333​

Gabe's minutes went up the most (other than Tre King, of course). Part of that is due to him nursing his hip earlier in the year, and the other part is that he's balling and we need him out there as much as he can handle.

The minutes for Grill and Holmes are pretty steady with a slight uptick.

The Freshman each have picked up a few more minutes each.

Osun and Jones minutes have trended up and down respectively, and they pretty much cancel each other out. Their combined minutes are recently pretty close to 40.

The other biggest change is Ward's minutes trending down. He is currently picking up the spot minutes at the 5 when there is foul trouble or we need to buy a minute or 2 of rest for Osun and Jones.


Basically, we've gone with more 4 guard lineups and Tre King + Watson filled in the rest of the minutes at the 4 spot.

Where does Jaz get his minutes back?
Some minutes from using less 4 guard looks, a couple minutes taken from Ward's spot minutes, a few from Watson, and a handful from Tre King. He will have to cede the most minutes I think. He's been solid, but he fouls too much and isn't efficient enough at scoring to make up for it.

My guess is that Jaz will be around 20 minutes for a couple games and grows from there. He is so stinking valuable on the floor, and TJ trusts him.

 

[cyclonestunners]

iSU will need someone at PG besides Lipsey and Holmes. Can Watson do this? IMO Gabe and Grill are a no . Eli is not up to task yet. Osun is great at the 5, but has no stamina. Someone has to cover this position. Unfortunately, Rob is the tallest and toughest option. He is also the worst 2 point shooter and FT shooter in about 10 years. King is improving. I think the offense has progressed where they don’t need Jazz as a high post passer/pick setter and he doesn’t drive well or create his own shots. He might actually fit better as a reserve utilizing a full court press or half court trap. I think more rotations /more energy might be the answer. Right now everyone has almost the same 3pt% - Grill38, Gabe37, Holmes37, Osun37, Jazz36.

You forgot the jimlad here. At least you have to be trolling, right? We need more than lipsey and the guy who led scoring against Texas?

 

[Didley]

Let's take a look at where Jaz's minutes went.
I'm only looking at P6 games, because minutes get screwy during the games against small schools. So, there are 5 games before Jaz's injury and 6 games after.
View attachment 108493

	Jaren Holmes	Gabe Kalscheur	Caleb Grill	Osun Osunniyi	Robert Jones	Tamin Lipsey	Aljaz Kunc	Hason Ward	Tre King	Demarion Watson
AVG Pre-Jaz Inj	30.8​	29.4​	33.6​	18​	19.8​	25.8​	30.4​	8.8​		8​
AVG Post-Jaz Inj	31.6667​	35.6667​	35​	19.8333​	17.5​	28.8333​	0​	4​	16​	11.3333​
Difference in Minutes	0.86667​	6.26667​	1.4​	1.83333​	-2.3​	3.03333​		-4.8​	16​	3.33333​

Gabe's minutes went up the most (other than Tre King, of course). Part of that is due to him nursing his hip earlier in the year, and the other part is that he's balling and we need him out there as much as he can handle.

The minutes for Grill and Holmes are pretty steady with a slight uptick.

The Freshman each have picked up a few more minutes each.

Osun and Jones minutes have trended up and down respectively, and they pretty much cancel each other out. Their combined minutes are recently pretty close to 40.

The other biggest change is Ward's minutes trending down. He is currently picking up the spot minutes at the 5 when there is foul trouble or we need to buy a minute or 2 of rest for Osun and Jones.


Basically, we've gone with more 4 guard lineups and Tre King + Watson filled in the rest of the minutes at the 4 spot.

Where does Jaz get his minutes back?
Some minutes from using less 4 guard looks, a couple minutes taken from Ward's spot minutes, a few from Watson, and a handful from Tre King. He will have to cede the most minutes I think. He's been solid, but he fouls too much and isn't efficient enough at scoring to make up for it.

My guess is that Jaz will be around 20 minutes for a couple games and grows from there. He is so stinking valuable on the floor, and TJ trusts him.

With Jaz back id like minutes like this:
Gabe 35
Grill 30
Holmes 25
Lipsey 25
Jaz 25
Osun 20
King 16
Jones 12
Watson 8
Ward 4

 

[CyCloned]

Jaz needs to take Jones minutes. Love how Jones plays hard hustling up and down the floor, but he is such a liability on the offensive side. He is just CHUCKING the ball on the backboard, no touch at all.

Jones has been really bad in some games. Love the hustle, but 60% of his shots have zero chance of going in, and they are all from 6 feet or closer. I don't think he took a shot every time he got the ball in the Post against TX, but he did so against Kansas and Oklahoma, and TT. King is a massive upgrade in terms of offense.

 

[Pharmacy99]

Jones has been really bad in some games. Love the hustle, but 60% of his shots have zero chance of going in, and they are all from 6 feet or closer. I don't think he took a shot every time he got the ball in the Post against TX, but he did so against Kansas and Oklahoma, and TT. King is a massive upgrade in terms of offense.

If he is that bad, how is he shootings around 50% since he came to ISU? He is not great but he is not as bad as some people think he is.

 

[clone52]

LOL, Jared Homan absolutely was not a poor offensive player for 4 years. He was a very solid offensive player for 2 years and then a very good offensive player is senior year, averaging close to 14ppg and 9rpg. His senior year alone, he had 24 games scoring double figures, including 10 games of 15+.

Very odd post. I don't think anyone has any sort of skewed memory of Homan. He was a really solid college player, really hard-nosed, tough, etc. He is objectively a much, much, better player in every way than Rob Jones.

His FG percentage says otherwise. I had to look it up because I couldn't believe it. He averaged 14 points a game but he averaged 12 shots a game. I wouldn't call that very good.

Great rebounder and fantastic shot blocker and not a liability on offense.

 

[cyatheart]

I really don’t know whose minutes he would take. I think we are better offensively with different guys in the floor. Just not sure he gets a ton of minutes.