The dark side of women's recruiting

[joefrog]

Really? Ever heard of Pokey Chatman or Nancy Lieberman-Kline?

Just what I was thinking.

While they're out there, some said in recent interviews, they could face fallout from the March resignation of Pokey Chatman from Louisiana State, following charges of what the university described for the first time as inappropriate sexual relationships between her and former players.

Negative recruiting fears follow Chatman incident at LSU | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

The players waited anxiously in the locker room for nearly 10 minutes before Lieberman joined them. She sat in front of a locker, crossed her legs and spoke in a measured tone. "I know that [some] of you have gone to management and said that Anna and I are having a sexual relationship," several players quote Lieberman as having said. Team members couldn't help but glance toward point guard Anna DeForge, a 25-year-old WNBA rookie. "Anna just put her head down," one Detroit veteran says. "After a while, she started crying."


Read more: A growing number of coach are falling in love withâ€â€￾and - 09.10.01 - SI Vault​

For the record, I would have no problem with any relative of mine playing basketball for an openly gay coach no matter the sex. I also think that BF is a wonderful man and coach and a great representative for our university.

There are issues though. I do know that certain women's teams in the 90's had, um, many teammates that were more than teammates, and they intentionally made the other team members uncomfortable. I also know of a star basketball player who grew up an ISU fan who didn't even really consider ISU when choosing schools because she didn't want to deal with the situation at ISU at that time. This was pre BF. She also knows BF personally and wishes she had the chance to play for him.

 

[CyFaninPA]

About predatory coaches - straight or gay: they have absolutely no business being around young adults. Strong training and enforcement of university harassment policies and procedures help keep the creeps out of coaching.

I agree that Bill Fennelly is a great rep for ISU. And I'm so glad to hear that you would be comfortable with an openly gay coach. The key phrase for me was the use of the phrase "openly gay." When people are closeted, there is a lack of integrity at work. Hopefully more folks will come out over the next decade, that would help build a better environment for women's b-ball.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

I really doubt BF ever mentioned the sexuality of any of his coaches during recruiting. The writer really seemed to just be putting words in his mouth and jumping to conclusions. Even the quotes from the former player, seem to be taken really out of context. If you specifically go looking for "code words" in everybody's answers, you're going to find them, whether they're really there or not. Of course she was told to push the family angle. That team spends a lot of time together off the court and that's going to be appealling to a lot of girls, as opposed to Baylor's "just show up for practice and I don't really give a **** what you do with the rest of your time" approach. That's not homophobic.

I also think it's curious that the two coaches she mainly casts suspicion on are two of the most high-profile male WBB coaches. Clear agenda, ******* ridiculous.

BF is one of the classiest coaches in college basketball, PERIOD. Anybody that says otherwise either hasn't ever met BF, hasn't ever spoken to BF, hasn't heard others speak of BF and how classy he is, or they just don't have a clue what they are talking about.

 

[BooneCy]

The nation and NCAA women's basketball have a long way to go on lesbian inclusion, though things keep improving year to year. In 20 years things will have improved to a point where people will wonder why it was a struggle. My biggest issue with NCAA women's basketball coaches, players and athletic department staffs is the odd refusal to use the term "lesbian" or "gay" when talking about diversity. If no one truly cares about a person's orientation, then SAY the word and talk about how gay basketball players and gay coaches are welcome in the game, are valued and the sport is better for it.

To refuse to say gay or lesbian implies that it is a bad thing to be gay.

I have followed ISU women's basketball since I was a kid and will always be a fan. I think Coach Fennelly has done wonderful things for the program and I think this is a "learning moment" and gives the opportunity for the whole program to move forward and be more inclusive. Say you are family-oriented, that's great. But then add: "Yes, we are a family-oriented program and by that it means we really care about one another. We consider ourselves to be an inclusive family and we want to make it clear that we value gay players and staffers."

Why would he say that....I'm really....why would he even broach the subject? If a player says, I'm gay, is that going to be a problem? Then absolutely let that player know how you feel. But, there is no reason to even bring it up otherwise. It puts the issue at a level of importance it shouldn't even be on. The real answer, is who cares if you are gay or straight.

 

[3GenClone]

I really doubt BF ever mentioned the sexuality of any of his coaches during recruiting. The writer really seemed to just be putting words in his mouth and jumping to conclusions. Even the quotes from the former player, seem to be taken really out of context... Clear agenda, ******* ridiculous.

It really seems that the authors are directing this story instead of letting it unfold. Why would the player choose ISU over the programs with openly gay staff members? When talking about "family" in this situation there are typically two scenarios:

1. the family that is welcoming and can accept the family member that "comes out"

2. the family that disowns the the openly gay family member

There are many situations in-between, but I see these as probably the most popular outcomes. So the question has to be asked, why would a basketball player choose Iowa State's "family" atmosphere over other openly-gay programs? Read the article from these two points of view and you come away with two distinct and conflicting opinions - which tells me either the authors have an agenda and have bent the facts to meet their opinions, or that the article is very poorly written.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

Why would he say that....I'm really....why would he even broach the subject? If a player says, I'm gay, is that going to be a problem? Then absolutely let that player know how you feel. But, there is no reason to even bring it up otherwise. It puts the issue at a level of importance it shouldn't even be on. The real answer, is who cares if you are gay or straight.

No ****. Pretty sure BF isn't recruiting player's with their sexual orientation in mind. Pretty sure he is looking at players to see if they can help make the team better. It isn't shocking to see two prominent male coaches in the women's game like BF and Geno getting blamed for an issue like this. Probably a lot of female coaches that are tired of getting their ***** kicked by guys.

 

[rebecacy]

I respect Bill F. for talking frankly, and I do not see any evidence that ISU plays an anti-gay card here. You can interpret language in many ways, and saying that a phrase like "family atmosphere or family environment" translates as anti-gay code could be seen as suggesting that gays are not family oriented or don't have families, both of which are untrue. Today in our culture the whole notion of what constitutes a family in the first place has been undergoing a broadening of definition: it is no longer limited to husband, wife, and two kids, one girl and one boy. That may have been the societal ideal years ago, but today that ideal is clearly out of date, in my view, and I am speaking as a heterosexual, married male.

I agree with your position completely but you have to at least wonder about homophobia in Iowa given the ousting of the 3 judges and the drive to reverse their decision on same-sex marriages.

 

[rebecacy]

Kitkat I agree with you 100%. Just because Coach Fen uses the words "family" in recruiting doesn't automatically mean "anti-gay," since obviously gays and lesbians can and do get married and raise families. I am an openly gay man and have been a dedicated ISU WBB follower since the 1990s, and I have hung out with Coach Fen socially and as part of the alumni association. Frankly, the guy is just NOT homophobic and I will always defend him and his program just as graciously as he has treated me and my boyfriend. I appreciated his honesty and quotes in the ESPN article --- at least he had the cohunes to be interviewed and quoted publicly (not hiding anything) instead of just declining the interview and hiding out in the dark like Baylor Coach Kim Mulkey!

Another perspective to point out is that most 18 year old kids on the recruiting trail who question their sexuality are probably, most likely, painfully, sadly in the closet for reasons most probably related to their home religion or disapproving parents. (There is a good reason why gay and lesbian teenagers have the #1 highest rates of suicide in America today.) To me, hearing a WBB program is like a tight knit supportive family would be music to my ears, because maybe as a scared 18 year old I could finally BELONG to something and have unconditional support from my teammates and coaches. That's a beautiful thing. I was closeted and scared when I came to Iowa State in the 1990s because of my conservative family environment at home, and I would have loved to have such a supportive and forgiving "team" to lift me up.

Coach Fen has said before he has taken heat on the recruiting trail for many years because opposing coaches would say "don't go to Iowa State because their offensive system doesn't reward post players" or "don't go to ISU because if you do you won't make it in the WNBA." Obviously he has refuted those points with hard evidence (Welle, Lacey etc) and brought the program to the elite levels. Opposing coaches will use anything at their disposal to land a top recruit or insult a rival program, and now it appears homophobia has been added to the list.

I will also agree with another poster here that it must be a tough dynamic to deal with players getting involved romantically with other players, when you are trying to create an intense, winning WBB program where interpersonal drama is minimized and excellence and performance execution is revered. You obviously don't EVER hear about such things in men's college sports, which might be one of the most taboo subjects out there. If ESPN wanted to write a truly controversial and ground breaking article maybe they should have chosen to shed light on the unspoken homophobia in MEN's team sports rather than baselessly slandering Iowa State's dedicated, decorated, and celebrated women's BB program.

Long live Coach Fennelly and Long Live ISU WBB! GO CYCLONES!

I really respect you and want to compliment you on your open and honest post. I'm not gay but would love having you as a friend.

 

[BooneCy]

I agree with your position completely but you have to at least wonder about homophobia in Iowa given the ousting of the 3 judges and the drive to reverse their decision on same-sex marriages.

What's actually quite ironic about that whole supreme court justice thing is the judge who actually exercised the loop hole that the supreme court justices ruled on was voted to stay in during the same election. So, the "rogue" judge is actually still in office.

The three supreme court justices just affirmed that what he did was legal. In my opinion, it was just a well done ad campaign. If there was really a movement, the other judge would have been gone too.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

What's actually quite ironic about that whole supreme court justice thing is the judge who actually exercised the loop hole that the supreme court justices ruled on was voted to stay in during the same election. So, the "rogue" judge is actually still in office.

The three supreme court justices just affirmed that what he did was legal. In my opinion, it was just a well done ad campaign. If there was really a movement, the other judge would have been gone too.

To call the judge who made the initial ruling on the topic "rogue" is pretty far from the truth.

 

[BooneCy]

To call the judge who made the initial ruling on the topic "rogue" is pretty far from the truth.

Don't get my quotes confused. I don't think he was rogue, hence why I put it in quotes. That is the vocabulary used to describe him by his deterrents.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

Don't get my quotes confused. I don't think he was rogue, hence why I put it in quotes. That is the vocabulary used to describe him by his deterrents.

Good. That whole deal is a black eye for the state of Iowa IMO.

 

[rebecacy]

Good. That whole deal is a black eye for the state of Iowa IMO.

Yep, I'm embarrassed.

 

[ISUFan98]

Yep, I'm embarrassed.

:rolleyes5cz:

 

[CyFaninPA]

Why would he say that....I'm really....why would he even broach the subject? If a player says, I'm gay, is that going to be a problem? Then absolutely let that player know how you feel. But, there is no reason to even bring it up otherwise. It puts the issue at a level of importance it shouldn't even be on. The real answer, is who cares if you are gay or straight.

Thank you for your response, though I disagree with you. Gay teens have a higher suicide rate because there are few authority figures who say the word gay positively. There is all the reason in the world to bring it up and bring it up in a positive manner. #1, It saves lives. And, #2, it creates a safe and inclusive environment. If people truly "care" about gay folks then they say the word gay comfortably.

 

[iahawkhunter]

Thank you for your response, though I disagree with you. Gay teens have a higher suicide rate because there are few authority figures who say the word gay positively. There is all the reason in the world to bring it up and bring it up in a positive manner. #1, It saves lives. And, #2, it creates a safe and inclusive environment. If people truly "care" about gay folks then they say the word gay comfortably.

So then a coach should give a supportive shout-out to all at-risk groups in order to save lives and create an inclusive environment?

 

[BooneCy]

Thank you for your response, though I disagree with you. Gay teens have a higher suicide rate because there are few authority figures who say the word gay positively. There is all the reason in the world to bring it up and bring it up in a positive manner. #1, It saves lives. And, #2, it creates a safe and inclusive environment. If people truly "care" about gay folks then they say the word gay comfortably.

I understand your position, and am sensitive to that. I think its fine that we disagree here. I guess the only other thing I have to say about is, I'm not sure if the coach has a responsibility to point out that he is ok with gay athletes, just in case anyone was wondering. Even if they weren't wondering, now you know. From the perspective of a gay athlete it might be nice to hear. Or, it might not be nice to hear.

That athlete might think, "if you are making it a big deal to talk about now, what are you going to do when you find out that I'm gay? Are you going to be overly sensitive to it? Will it be a big deal then? I just want to be a student-athlete, don't define me by my sexuality."

It smacks of someone being overly apologetic about something that they didn't do wrong, but want to make up for anyway.

 

[Stumpy]

So then a coach should give a supportive shout-out to all at-risk groups in order to save lives and create an inclusive environment?

No, but they can take the time to be mindful of their language and actions to make sure it is inclusive of all identity groups.

 

[Cyclonestate78]

There is a fundamental problem behind this whole crusade to stop this alleged dirty recruiting...

They are basically taking the stance that any coach that promotes a family atmosphere and doesn't wear a rainbow flag pin on their jacket to every game is a raging homophobe that is trying to destroy lesbians in women's basketball worldwide. Really?

Since when did the idea of family change so drastically? The idea that family is a straight only thing? The idea that family is more about morality then it is about a group of people bound together by a common purpose, whose bond can't be broken, who care about eachother, and who will always have eachother's back through thick and thin?

I kind of got the impression from the article that some of these folks personal insecurity about their own sexual orientation is by far more of a problem then some perceived attempt by others to ruin them or their programs.

 

[iahawkhunter]

No, but they can take the time to be mindful of their language and actions to make sure it is inclusive of all identity groups.

That's fine. My issue isn't about the need to be mindful, but the assertion that inclusiveness should be deliberately and explicitly proclaimed. I like how BooneCy stated it:

I understand your position, and am sensitive to that. I think its fine that we disagree here. I guess the only other thing I have to say about is, I'm not sure if the coach has a responsibility to point out that he is ok with gay athletes, just in case anyone was wondering. Even if they weren't wondering, now you know. From the perspective of a gay athlete it might be nice to hear. Or, it might not be nice to hear.

That athlete might think, "if you are making it a big deal to talk about now, what are you going to do when you find out that I'm gay? Are you going to be overly sensitive to it? Will it be a big deal then? I just want to be a student-athlete, don't define me by my sexuality."

It smacks of someone being overly apologetic about something that they didn't do wrong, but want to make up for anyway.