The money?????????????

[Covenant Clone]

Exactly! Facilities, money, budgets, atmosphere don't win or lose games. Players and coaches do! So, the next time we lose to the likes of UT or anyone with better facilities, atmosphere, budget etc. I am asking the dM loyalist to avoid resorting to that excuse in his defense. A coach is responsible for recruiting players, hiring assistants and winning games. I'm tired of hearing how bad things were in the '80s and '90s. If ISU is "too tough of a job" for DM, then perhaps it is time for someone else to try his mettle at this institution.

If ISU had Pete Carroll as there coach and he was trying to recruit a kids away from Mac Brown at Texas, I can promise you the vast majority would go to Texas and rightfully so. I would want to play in front of 80+ thousand every home game, I would want to practice at the best facilities available. I would want the best assistant coaches money could buy to develop me to give me the best chance to get to the next level.

 

[Covenant Clone]

Exactly! Facilities, money, budgets, atmosphere don't win or lose games. Players and coaches do! So, the next time we lose to the likes of UT or anyone with better facilities, atmosphere, budget etc. I am asking the dM loyalist to avoid resorting to that excuse in his defense. A coach is responsible for recruiting players, hiring assistants and winning games. I'm tired of hearing how bad things were in the '80s and '90s. If ISU is "too tough of a job" for DM, then perhaps it is time for someone else to try his mettle at this institution.

and just to add to your first point, you are exactly right that players and coaches win games. I am not using the budget, facilities or atmosphere as an excuse for losing to UT. I am saying that the players were put in the exact right positions all day to make plays and they didn't make them. And who put them in the position to do that, the coaches. I am not saying that they can't make the plays, they just didn't.

 

[cycloneworld]

Exactly! Facilities, money, budgets, atmosphere don't win or lose games. Players and coaches do! So, the next time we lose to the likes of UT or anyone with better facilities, atmosphere, budget etc. I am asking the dM loyalist to avoid resorting to that excuse in his defense. A coach is responsible for recruiting players, hiring assistants and winning games. I'm tired of hearing how bad things were in the '80s and '90s. If ISU is "too tough of a job" for DM, then perhaps it is time for someone else to try his mettle at this institution.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. You can't look at 1 or 2 or 3 games that we won or lost and say it's the facilities fault. Even Michigan/Ohio State/Notre Dame have bad games and even years...but in the long run, they are highly successful in large part because of their ability to recruit top athletes which is a direct result of excellent facilities.

So yes, EVERY program will win and lose games they aren't supposed to but that's football.

 

[darts180]

Well its more of a indirect relationship. No the facilities themselves do not create wins, but when you have nice facilities, it more attractive to the recruits you are trying to bring in, and in some situations can be more inviting to fans, which in turn could increase attendence and noise inside the stadium. When you have the ability to show your nice facilities off to you recruits, you have a better chance of possibly landing some big time recruits that you would not be able to without the facilities upgrade. Wehn you attract more fans, you increase the overall atmosphere and bring in additional money.

I was rereading this thread, and I guess I just missed this one. I completely agree with the sentiment, however, I am not sure that applies.
The point that UrbandaleClone was trying to make, I think, is that had we actually WON games like the ones that he mentioned (and several other along the way), then there would be some precedent within the program that we can win big games (e.g. KState) and win games that would have been good wins for the program at the time (e.g. Wyoming).
This would have made it easier for the more money to compete crowd to make their argument.
But because the common theme has been that we blow these leads, and turn what could be potentially HUGE PROGRAM MAKING WINS into another crushing defeat. It tends to make some of the wealthy people, who might be willing to part with a few of their hard earned dollars for upgrades in facilities, coaches salaries, etc, look at it as a bad investment.
So just to recap, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment Chuck D expressed, however I, along with a LOT of other Cyclone fans, want to see something that will make us open up the checkbook. And after 12 (TWELVE) years, some of us wonder if we ever will.

 

[darts180]

Following that logic, we should have NEVER beaten Iowa last year, they have better facilities, and tradition, and what about Neb two years ago, that must not have happend. What about A&M last year, no one would ever claim we have more $$ than they do, so I must hallucinating when I remember a vicrtory over them.

Whoa, whoa, whoa brianhos, lets get the facts straight.
I think that I have read on all of these sites that Iowa was the MOST OVERRATED TEAM IN THE COUNTRY LAST YEAR. A & M went 5-6, so we didn't beat a GOOD A & M team (Like Seneca should have, but hey he couldn't overcome the Aggies, and his coaches),
Two years ago, Nebraska was 5-6, breaking the longest, or second longest, bowl streak.
What is Dan's record against teams that finish over .500???
I am sick of hearing that oh, but we beat Nebraska two years ago, and last years A & M, and Iowa teams, THEY ALL SUCKED!!!!
Name recognition means so much to the Mac crowd, because they think that they are making good points, THEY'RE NOT.
Winning those games is like saying burnt steak is good considering it's burnt.

 

[darts180]

*Sigh*...
You never answered my question about the games we won where we weren't supposed to. How do you explain those? Or doesn't that fit in with your "Mac=sh*t" campaign???

Can you please give me a list of games that we should not have won, but did in the last 12 years?

 

[cycloneworld]

Can you please give me a list of games that we should not have won, but did in the last 12 years?

Wow, you are just not that bright Jeff, are you?

Iowa still went to a New Year's Day bowl game. They came into our game ranked #8. Now I know you are going to say that it doesn't matter what they were ranked at the time because that helps you argument (or lack thereof) but in reality it does matter.

2005 Iowa (the were ranked coming into Ames remember?)
2004 Nebraska (they were ranked coming into Ames remember?)
2005 Colorado (they were ranked coming into Ames)
2002 at Iowa
2002 Florida State (well we didn't win it but we don't need to bring that whole thing up again)

There are a few just in the last couple years.

And we have chances against Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech this year still.

Next Question.

 

[ISUFan22]

I'm glad that none of you pessimists are the ISU AD. If that were the case, we'd have a new coach every year and get nowhere.

 

[CYdTracked]

Iowa seems to do just fine -- their budget is larger for sure (not sure about football budgets specifically), but I don't think their facilities are dramatically better.

I'm not sure if anyone has responded to this specifically but to say Iowa doesn't have football dramatically better than ISU is just a dumb statement. As much as I bleed Cardinal and Gold, Kinnick Stadium is a palace compared to Jack Trice. The game atomosphere there is one of the better ones in the country mostly because the fans are so close to the field there.

Now we do have the gem in Hilton over Carver Hawkeye. Carver seems like a hole in the ground if you have ever been there. You walk in at ground level and that is the top row of seats.

I can't seem to find any recent articles on the athletic budgets but I did find an 2005 article that listed the 2003 budgets and ISU was 11th in the Big 12 in football and dead last in overall athletic budget. That might have changed some since then but I would bet we are still in the bottom 1/3 in the conference in both and I would bet Iowa's FB budget is significantly higher than ISU's. It takes money to win, yes winning does help bring in money but when you are a program like ISU without much winning tradition to fall back on you have to spend some money to jumpstart programs.

 

[C.John]

I

Now we do have the gem in Hilton over Carver Hawkeye. Carver seems like a hole in the ground if you have ever been there. You walk in at ground level and that is the top row of seats.

The first time you go to Carver, you are very underwhelmed. The exterior is not inspiring, and the fact that once you enter the only way is down just doesn't inspire a sence of awe. Hilton though...the size of it as you walk towards it, the actual design of the exterior and the fact that once you enter the actual arena you are able to look both up and down creates a sense of awe and excitment. Hilton creates a sense of massive space, while carver always seemed small to me.

Now that I gave props to Hilton, if we had a FB stadium that merged the tailgate-ability of The Jack with the architecture of Kinnick then I would a very happy man. I don't like EIU, I hate the parking near that stadium but the actual look of that stadium I like.

Let's Go Clones!! Smack the kitties of UNI!!

 

[URBCLONE]

I'm glad that none of you pessimists are the ISU AD. If that were the case, we'd have a new coach every year and get nowhere.

Asking for better performance than 54-79 after 12 years is hardly changing coaches every year. Let's put our cards on the table shall we? If ISU goes 6-6 this year that should be grounds for termination IMO. Do you want a lifetime contract for DM? Do you think ISU as an institution can expect any better than mediocrity with appearances in minor bowls?

Finally, why is it considered 'optimistic' to run down the school, the city, the fans, the stadium, the budget but it is considered 'pessimistic' to question a head coach with a 54-79 career mark? I am having serious trouble seeing the logic here.

 

[URBCLONE]

I'm not sure if anyone has responded to this specifically but to say Iowa doesn't have football dramatically better than ISU is just a dumb statement. As much as I bleed Cardinal and Gold, Kinnick Stadium is a palace compared to Jack Trice. The game atomosphere there is one of the better ones in the country mostly because the fans are so close to the field there.

Now we do have the gem in Hilton over Carver Hawkeye. Carver seems like a hole in the ground if you have ever been there. You walk in at ground level and that is the top row of seats.

I can't seem to find any recent articles on the athletic budgets but I did find an 2005 article that listed the 2003 budgets and ISU was 11th in the Big 12 in football and dead last in overall athletic budget. That might have changed some since then but I would bet we are still in the bottom 1/3 in the conference in both and I would bet Iowa's FB budget is significantly higher than ISU's. It takes money to win, yes winning does help bring in money but when you are a program like ISU without much winning tradition to fall back on you have to spend some money to jumpstart programs.

Gee, do you suppose Iowa's money and facilities have anything to do with the WINNING that they have done under Fry and Ferentz? Can you tell me what the capacity of Kinnick was in 1978 prior to Fry taking over? (Hint, it wasn't over 70,000 as it is today). Do you suppose that the reason our budget and fan base is not growing is because a winning product has not been put on the field? Spare me the 5 bowl games in the last 6 years argument. 64 teams out of 119 D-1 squads will go to a bowl this year. Not exactly the accomplishment that it was when there were less than 20 bowls every year.

All of this money, facilities, tradition blah blah blah is just smoke to cover the lack of performance over the last 12 years. Lack of performance = 1 winning conference record, 0 BCS bowl bids, etc. etc. etc.

 

[ISUFan22]

Asking for better performance than 54-79 after 12 years is hardly changing coaches every year. Let's put our cards on the table shall we? If ISU goes 6-6 this year that should be grounds for termination IMO. Do you want a lifetime contract for DM? Do you think ISU as an institution can expect any better than mediocrity with appearances in minor bowls?

Finally, why is it considered 'optimistic' to run down the school, the city, the fans, the stadium, the budget but it is considered 'pessimistic' to question a head coach with a 54-79 career mark? I am having serious trouble seeing the logic here.

I've grown tired of this 54-79 career mark. Sure...it counts...yet D-Mac had to spend the first few years establishing a different attitude within the program. After being a doormat for so long, everyone expected it. Players, coaches, boosters, fans, etc.

D-Mac had to "exterminate" that attitude and that takes a long time. With the win over Iowa in '98 and then the 2000 season, that attitude was finally washed away.

Then...he began working toward taking the program to a new level. That too, takes time. Very few programs can turn corner after corner overnight - like fans expect.

As for this season, anything short of 7-5 is grave disappointment. I'll be disappointed if we do less than 8-4.

And that disappointment will be directed towards the entire program - not just one coach or player.

 

[TheHelgo]

5 bowls since 2000 is tied for 4th most in the conference. Granted, the bowls have been 2nd-tier bowls, but at least we have reached a level of consistency that 8 other teams in the conference don't have.

I am as frustrated as most on this board, but things are light-years better now than they were prior to 2000. Maybe we need a new coach to get us to the next level, maybe not, but I have faith in Pollard's decisions.

Finally, keep one thing in mind. It is incredibly hard to become an elite program in any sport. Most programs would love to have the consistency of performance that we have year in/year out. ISU is now at least taken very seriously in football vs. doormat status for most of its existence. Hell, we've been on National TV twice this year already. No network would have considered even regional coverage in 1995.

Put things in perspective people.

 

[CYdTracked]

I still am just baffled how anyone thinks that we could attract a better coaching staff than we have now at ISU. Firing the staff after this season would be a setback to what has been built so far which everyone forgets is better than any coach before McCarney. Iowa State is NOT a hotbed for top recruits or big name coaches and to think that we would be better off firing Mac after this season is just silly. If you would have asked an ISU fan 6 years ago what they would have thought if ISU would make 5 bowl games and had the kind of success we have had they probably would have not believed that it would happen. We've gotten greedy after tasting what it is like to win and are not showing faith and patience that is needed to take that next step. And to say that spending money doesn't mean anything towards winning is dumb too. The elite programs spend money on football and are consistently good because they have the facilities and marketing power nationally to attract the top recruits.

We have a young and inexpirienced defense this year and there is nothing we could have done to prevent the Berryman mess and Robertson using illegal substance plus the injury to Smith. Having those 3 guys would have been a huge boost. I still think this defense has enough talent to be pretty good next season but for now we will have to take the growing pains. The offense has been a HUGE disappointment so far but that might be more of Cotton's play calling or the players just not stepping up and making the big plays or both.

I'm not saying that I want to continue to have a football team that performs at the level it is right now, I am saying we have made leaps and bounds of progress in just 6 years of time. Just 6 years ago we'd probably still be tearing down the goalposts after that Toledo win...

 

[melt]

Is there a reason we need to discuss getting rid of McCarney twice a week? Can we please ban the next person who posts a thread asking about whether we should keep or fire McCarney until the end of the season? PLEASE?

 

[cstrunk]

5 bowls since 2000 is tied for 4th most in the conference. Granted, the bowls have been 2nd-tier bowls, but at least we have reached a level of consistency that 8 other teams in the conference don't have.

I am as frustrated as most on this board, but things are light-years better now than they were prior to 2000. Maybe we need a new coach to get us to the next level, maybe not, but I have faith in Pollard's decisions.

Finally, keep one thing in mind. It is incredibly hard to become an elite program in any sport. Most programs would love to have the consistency of performance that we have year in/year out. ISU is now at least taken very seriously in football vs. doormat status for most of its existence. Hell, we've been on National TV twice this year already. No network would have considered even regional coverage in 1995.

Put things in perspective people.

Is Mac and his staff right for us at the moment? I couldn't say. They have improved over a long period of time. Right now I'm willing to stay with Mac but if he doesn't get us somewhere besides Shreveport year-in and year-out, then I'd be willing to favor a change. This has already started happening over the past few years but let's say that Mac is still improving. Let's give him a couple more years, then look into possible changes (maybe more in line of assistants than a head coach change). I'll admit that I question Mac a lot. But he is in progress of making changes in our program (albeit a drawn out change over a long period of time).

Let's look at the program before and after 2000 with Mac at the helm.

1995-96 (3-8)
1996-97 (2-9)
1997-98 (1-10) *going backwards? not compared to 94 season (0-10-1)
1998-99 (4-7)
1999-00 (4-7) *improvement begins
2000-01 (9-3)
2001-02 (7-5)
2002-03 (7-7) *should be 8-6 counting FSU
2003-04 (2-10) *gulp*
2004-05 (7-5) *narrowly missing Big 12 North
2005-06 (7-5) *repeat of 04-05
2006-07 (2-2)

Mac's record since 2000: 41-37
Mac's record prior to 2000: 14-41-1

I know I may have posted otherwise before now, but after looking at those stats it's hard not to see that Mac is getting it done.... although he sure is taking his time. Like many have said, it can't happen overnight if you want it to keep happening. Most people are just frustrated because it seems like we have finally built up a solid enough base to start seeing the next big step - championships and new year's bowls - but it hasn't happened yet. Will it ever happen with McCarney? That can't be answered yet. But I am officially willing to give him this year and the next to see if he can keep improving this team. If we stumble hard somewhere then I will be ready for changes.

I just don't like the people who side one way or the other too far, like the excuse for keeping Mac because during the past decades we were absolutely pathetic... or the excuse for getting rid of Mac because he hasn't gotten anything done this decade (see stats above) with the "adequate" budget and facilities that we have.

Sure, we're all looking for big things out of this year's team and next. What fan doesn't? So let's try to stay calm, because as of right now there is no reason to fire Mac (although after losses or bad showings against lesser teams, emotions run higher the following weeks). But the fact is that right now we are 2-2. Could be 4-0. Could be 0-4. A decade ago we would have been 0-4. Maybe at the last half of this decade we would have been 4-0? I'm more than willing to let Mac stick around at least a couple more years to find out.

 

[frontrangeclone]

If you are going to dwell on all of the games that ISU "should" have won over schools with lesser facilities, then at least be fair and point these out too:

Any wins over Iowa
Any wins over Nebraska
Last year's win at Texas A&M
Last year's win over ranked Colorado

How do you explain those wins? These schools are FAR superior facilities than we do. We are not going to win every game we are supposed to win nor are we going to lose every game we are supposed to either. That's why the play the game.

To be fair, CU has terrible facilities. They don't have a designated indoor facility for football and Folsom holds roughly what JTS holds counting the grassy hills. Granted, Boulder is a beautiful town to lure recruits to, but the facilities excuse doesn't fly.

I explain the win over TAMU b/c quite frankly, they stunk and have a coaching staff that makes DMac almost look good. The 02 and 04 wins vs. Neb. were during their downfall.

 

[cycloneworld]

I explain the win over TAMU b/c quite frankly, they stunk and have a coaching staff that makes DMac almost look good. The 02 and 04 wins vs. Neb. were during their downfall.

Ummm...Nebraska in '04 was ranked when we beat them. That's in a downfall?

What about the Iowa victories?

And the point isn't beating teams that have worse facilities than us...even though is seems like it because again, winning programs typically have excellent facilities...it was about beating teams that we shouldn't have...which beating a ranked CU team counts IMO.

 

[frontrangeclone]

well, pardon me cycloneworld. you did emphasize the facilities when saying "FAR superior facilities than we do." I'm just clarifying that I wouldn't count CU as another program having a much better infrastructure than ISU has. I don't think NU was ranked in november of '04 when they went 5-6 that season. They were ranked in '02 when they came into JTS, but by Nebraska standards, they were definitately on the decline from the juggernaut they were in the decades prior. Of course the Iowa victories are great, with the '98 and '02 wins being perhaps the biggest ever, but c'mon.... in '99 and '00 during Ferentz's first 2 years, Iowa was terrible.