Re: My response is no Kidding? sarcasm
Does your tummy hurt from laughing so much :wideeyed:
Does your tummy hurt from laughing so much :wideeyed:
What was to be and the New Offensive Coordinator
- Thread starter JCloned2
- Start date
If you think Loney would even think about coming to ISU after not even getting a interview, you're high. He did a great job while he was at ISU and I'm pretty sure he would again but it's not going to happen.
A lot of you forget how bad our defense was during the time when Loney was here and you also forget how bad our offense got after he left. He's an ISU alum, dedicated to ISU, didn't get a sniff(or a call) at the job either time, and for that Pollard should be ashamed.
A lot of you forget how bad our defense was during the time when Loney was here and you also forget how bad our offense got after he left. He's an ISU alum, dedicated to ISU, didn't get a sniff(or a call) at the job either time, and for that Pollard should be ashamed.
Don't all good coaches change with the times? You are either saying Loney never was a good coach, or that he was but the Loney of 5-8 years ago is the same Loney as today. Every coach grows or gets fired. I think you're making a leap saying Loney hasn't grown as a coach or learned anything new.
D Up - let me try this another way. What Loney ran was primarily a prototypical offense with the key innovation that he brought to the table being his enhancement of the zone blocking formation. Loney made some real innovations that were picked up not only by other colleges but NFL as well. However his base offense was a typical I back with fairly common passing routes. Nothing wrong with that..as it obviously worked. He was not a proponent of the running quarterback as a everydown threat. Four & five wide out sets were generally sets of necessity rather than again an everydown threat.
The spread of today is a very complex offense that finds its balance not in run pass, but balance of touches across positions to keep the threat constant across positions. It isn't about how you get the ball as running back or receiver, just that you get the ball. Tulsa last year led the nation in total offense at 543.9 yards a game last season. It also became the first team with a 5,000-yard passer, three 1,000-yard receivers and a 1,000-yard running back in N.C.A.A. history. A common element of the spread is its development of an advanced quick passing game that challenges even the most athletic defenses. The slants and misdirections are that are core to for example a TTU are a well developed aspect of most spread offenses.
The other common characteristic that most, not all spreads share is tempo. Fast tempo & no huddle are designed to keep the defense off balance. Don't give them time to regroup, the spread offense keeps them guessing, keep the pressure on. For example Tulsa goal is to snap the ball in the first 10 seconds of the play clock.
Running a spread offense well is not easy. It takes more that just good athletes it takes time to get it down. Witness Michigans struggles this year. (want to better understand the complexity of Rich's offense? Go back a read some of the their spring practice reports.
One thing I know we can agree on is that it takes more than having a system that will work. Even if you have a great system, the athletes to run it, you will not succeed if you don't have a real Maestro at the controls you may as well be running the wing T. Play calling is huge in a spread perhaps even more challenging than in the west coast offenses. While both are complex, the play calling in spread is designed not only to gain yards on this play but each play is to keep all the defense off balance to set up the next play.
There are a lot of variations in the current evolution of the spread offense from the triple option spread at G.T. to the diffences within the Big 12. Take for example MU & TTU.
Missouri runs a "read spread", in that their QB reads the defense to find the weakness, and then exploits that weakness. Texas Tech runs a a series-based spread, similar to a series-based run offense. If you take away one feature of the series, there are 3-4 other ways to hurt you.
Loney was not a disciple of the spread offense of today. He was a good coach. I like him. I just don't think he is the man for today.
The spread of today is a very complex offense that finds its balance not in run pass, but balance of touches across positions to keep the threat constant across positions. It isn't about how you get the ball as running back or receiver, just that you get the ball. Tulsa last year led the nation in total offense at 543.9 yards a game last season. It also became the first team with a 5,000-yard passer, three 1,000-yard receivers and a 1,000-yard running back in N.C.A.A. history. A common element of the spread is its development of an advanced quick passing game that challenges even the most athletic defenses. The slants and misdirections are that are core to for example a TTU are a well developed aspect of most spread offenses.
The other common characteristic that most, not all spreads share is tempo. Fast tempo & no huddle are designed to keep the defense off balance. Don't give them time to regroup, the spread offense keeps them guessing, keep the pressure on. For example Tulsa goal is to snap the ball in the first 10 seconds of the play clock.
Running a spread offense well is not easy. It takes more that just good athletes it takes time to get it down. Witness Michigans struggles this year. (want to better understand the complexity of Rich's offense? Go back a read some of the their spring practice reports.
One thing I know we can agree on is that it takes more than having a system that will work. Even if you have a great system, the athletes to run it, you will not succeed if you don't have a real Maestro at the controls you may as well be running the wing T. Play calling is huge in a spread perhaps even more challenging than in the west coast offenses. While both are complex, the play calling in spread is designed not only to gain yards on this play but each play is to keep all the defense off balance to set up the next play.
There are a lot of variations in the current evolution of the spread offense from the triple option spread at G.T. to the diffences within the Big 12. Take for example MU & TTU.
Missouri runs a "read spread", in that their QB reads the defense to find the weakness, and then exploits that weakness. Texas Tech runs a a series-based spread, similar to a series-based run offense. If you take away one feature of the series, there are 3-4 other ways to hurt you.
Loney was not a disciple of the spread offense of today. He was a good coach. I like him. I just don't think he is the man for today.
Very good point. I admit I don't know that he hasn't totally adapted his offensive philosophy. I am speaking based on people arguing that what he did at ISU is what we need now. That I am confident in. What he would do today no one knows but Steve.
btw I agree with other posters that I doubt seriously that we will find out.
There is Little Defense Played in the Big 12
The Big 12 is a pretty exciting conference with all the offense. However, if Chizik looked around the Big 12 and came to the conclusion that a wide open offense was the key to winning Big 12 games- IMO he was making a mistake. From what I've seen, very little defense is being played in the Big 12 these days- there is so much emphasis on offense. I look at the OU & UT teams and their defenses are below average. I think the bowl games will prove that out.
I hope PR puts a ton of emphasis on defense & really emphasizes the fundamentals. The quickest way for ISU to win Big 12 North titles is with a strong defensive unit & a balanced offense. I don't think that Arnaud is a spread offense QB- he just isn't strong at running the spread option. IMO we'd be better served using a 3 WR set and a FB/H-back in the backfield.
The Big 12 is a pretty exciting conference with all the offense. However, if Chizik looked around the Big 12 and came to the conclusion that a wide open offense was the key to winning Big 12 games- IMO he was making a mistake. From what I've seen, very little defense is being played in the Big 12 these days- there is so much emphasis on offense. I look at the OU & UT teams and their defenses are below average. I think the bowl games will prove that out.
I hope PR puts a ton of emphasis on defense & really emphasizes the fundamentals. The quickest way for ISU to win Big 12 North titles is with a strong defensive unit & a balanced offense. I don't think that Arnaud is a spread offense QB- he just isn't strong at running the spread option. IMO we'd be better served using a 3 WR set and a FB/H-back in the backfield.
I don't think we will get a good feel for OU's defense based on them playing Florida. Texas may be an interesting one however from a defensive standpoint. I don't know that many defense's are going to slow down OU, Texas, Tech, and Okie State this bowl season.
The hottest offense thrives on speed, stretching the - 08.11.08 - SI Vault - Good read
btw...I am not going to argue that this is an incredible defensive year in the Big 12, but offenses today are putting up more points across the board. The spread really is putting pressure on defenses and as I said earlier they really are behind right now. Some think TCU's 4-2-5 scheme may become more the norm. I tend to think it is going to be changing the profile of the athletes in key positions. DE's will be less James Reed types and more mobile like a LB. Linebackers most important attributes will become ability to read and tackle in open field. (time was where top attributes for linebackers was identifying the right gap and being able to fill that gap with authority) Ability to play press coverage will be more important. It takes time not just for college defenses to adjust but it also takes High Schools to adjust.
Urban Meyer talks about how different it is now because the majority of the schools they recruit from are running various spread offenses and players are learning before they get to college. High Schools are putting kids in positions that exploit their skills - which are often different positions than they played in the old style offenses. So not only are kids more experienced in the spread they are finding kids with experience in those positions that would have otherwise played another position and either been undiscovered or less developed.
btw...I am not going to argue that this is an incredible defensive year in the Big 12, but offenses today are putting up more points across the board. The spread really is putting pressure on defenses and as I said earlier they really are behind right now. Some think TCU's 4-2-5 scheme may become more the norm. I tend to think it is going to be changing the profile of the athletes in key positions. DE's will be less James Reed types and more mobile like a LB. Linebackers most important attributes will become ability to read and tackle in open field. (time was where top attributes for linebackers was identifying the right gap and being able to fill that gap with authority) Ability to play press coverage will be more important. It takes time not just for college defenses to adjust but it also takes High Schools to adjust.
Urban Meyer talks about how different it is now because the majority of the schools they recruit from are running various spread offenses and players are learning before they get to college. High Schools are putting kids in positions that exploit their skills - which are often different positions than they played in the old style offenses. So not only are kids more experienced in the spread they are finding kids with experience in those positions that would have otherwise played another position and either been undiscovered or less developed.
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coach chizik was the worst coach that we have ever had-the guy can not even coach a pop warner team- get the brightest and the best in the business for offensive coordinator and for defensive coordinator.
richmond that beat montana looked like they were well coached on offense and defense-look at their coordinators-i think oklahoma's recruiting coodinator and a former qb cale gundy would make a fine coordinator-texas a and m's offensive coordinator and qb coach
nolan cromwell,a kansas grad, and all pro safety at the los angeles rams ,has a very good resume in pro coaching and he beat chizik
bad at jack trice field very easily with a second string qb. you have to pick some that is young,bright and has been a winner on both sides of the ball.
richmond that beat montana looked like they were well coached on offense and defense-look at their coordinators-i think oklahoma's recruiting coodinator and a former qb cale gundy would make a fine coordinator-texas a and m's offensive coordinator and qb coach
nolan cromwell,a kansas grad, and all pro safety at the los angeles rams ,has a very good resume in pro coaching and he beat chizik
bad at jack trice field very easily with a second string qb. you have to pick some that is young,bright and has been a winner on both sides of the ball.
If this is the case this is great news!
We said all year a pass rush would do us wonders, hopefully Price will be able to provide that!
http://auburntigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/price_terry00.html
Re: There is Little Defense Played in the Big 12
That is why Tiller is so interestiong.
That is why Tiller is so interestiong.
:smile:Good post jcloned2. I think these points have been made several times in many different posts, but you put them together well. You will get negative and positive responses but isn't that what makes this fun.
My adds-
Of all the players I have spoken with who played for chiz I tend to hear the same things.
It seemed chiz had no idea what he was doing.
football was not as much fun as they had imagined it would be.
It felt like the offense had handcuffs on when it came to being creative and trying to create/make plays and score points to win a game. This is sad.
*We can only hope that the new staff listens to the players and enters next season with a new philosophy. It is okay to be a hard nosed coach. But at least know what the hell you are doing. Let the kids enjoy what they are doing. And hang it all out there doing what ever we have to do to hammer points on the board.
My adds-
Of all the players I have spoken with who played for chiz I tend to hear the same things.
It seemed chiz had no idea what he was doing.
football was not as much fun as they had imagined it would be.
It felt like the offense had handcuffs on when it came to being creative and trying to create/make plays and score points to win a game. This is sad.
*We can only hope that the new staff listens to the players and enters next season with a new philosophy. It is okay to be a hard nosed coach. But at least know what the hell you are doing. Let the kids enjoy what they are doing. And hang it all out there doing what ever we have to do to hammer points on the board.
Interesting thing to me is two fold: first players crave aggressive creative playcalling. (it also helps recruiting)
Second is that as I said earlier it isn't just the system its the Maestro to choreograph the game so that we run a game plan that puts the defense on its heels. I think that was RMac's biggest weakness. (I also think Chizik had a pretty tight rein on the offense)
As a fan, I love to see aggressive play calling, even if it occasionally costs my team the game. Better to go down with guns blazing.
