NBA: ***2021-2022 NBA thread***
- Thread starter JP4CY
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Oh my...the Bulls are going to get embarrassed! Still a very positive season for Chicago but it is ending on a downward trajectory! They just can run with the better teams in the East right now.
Frank Vogel out as coach of Los Angeles Lakers after 3 seasons, sources say (espn.com)
May as well make LeBron a player/coach/GM so he has total control over the roster and can be the one where "the buck stops here" when they fail next time. Apparently are going to fire Vogel who just won the championship 2 years ago - he's not the reason the Lakers flopped this year. The ever changing roster because LeBron and AD ask for it is their issue. They wanted Westbrook and it backfired so instead Vogel gets to be the fall guy. Saw some comments on FB after THT dropped 40 last week that probably means LeBron will want to trade him now because he doesn't like playing with young guys. LOL I am thoroughly loving watching LeBron's team crash and burn lately
May as well make LeBron a player/coach/GM so he has total control over the roster and can be the one where "the buck stops here" when they fail next time. Apparently are going to fire Vogel who just won the championship 2 years ago - he's not the reason the Lakers flopped this year. The ever changing roster because LeBron and AD ask for it is their issue. They wanted Westbrook and it backfired so instead Vogel gets to be the fall guy. Saw some comments on FB after THT dropped 40 last week that probably means LeBron will want to trade him now because he doesn't like playing with young guys. LOL I am thoroughly loving watching LeBron's team crash and burn lately
Yeah, makes you wonder if they had everyone healthy right now going into the playoffs how things would look. They haven't really had a consistent group of guys available for awhile lately to get any momentum going. Having Ball right now would help and they had Williams and Caruso out with injuries for long stretch too, even LaVine and Vucevic have missed a few here and there but they really have not played with a healthy roster in awhile. Only Ayo and DeRozan logged over 70 games.
They really could use a stretch 4 on this team with some size for next season.
It was fun to watch the Bulls surprise people most of the winter and such an enjoyable change from previous seasons. Hopefully they do add in coming offseason and climb another notch toward contention.
I still don't understand how they thought trading for Westbrook was a good idea. Everybody knew he couldn't shoot. (well, except for maybe Lebron))
I am burned out of LeBron at the moment...his comments about the make up of the roster being the front office's decisions are laughable! LeBron put that roster together and it failed miserably! Take some ownership on that one!
He doesn't like to play with younger players, which is why they have one of the oldest rosters in the league. Lebron is pretty much the GM of the Lakers. Rob Pelinka is just there to help facilitate the transactions.
Amen! Just him doing what he has done for years now which is tell the front office "if only we had this guy I will have enough help to win." Started when he went to Miami, continued when he returned to Cleveland, and is doing it again in LA. At some point it's not the surrounding cast that is the problem... At this point he's more about just assembling teams that have the star name recognition not putting guys around him that actually compliment his game well.
Another example why I don't consider him the GOAT over Jordan because you never heard Jordan openly ask or talking about needing to go out and get this guy or that guy or not having enough help or don't have the right coach. Jerry Krause basically added Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen in 1 offseason to build the core to win the 1st 3 championships then when Jordan came out of retirement went out on a limb and traded for the headcase at the time Dennis Rodman that most teams would not want to deal with to fill the void Grant left and other than those moves name any other significant trade or signing he did to build that dynasty around MJ over the years other than adding mostly journeymen role players to fill out the roster. Ron Harper was brought in when MJ was retired and Toni Kukoc was drafted in 1990 before they even won their first championship. Go look at that 1996 roster and there isn't a single guy outside of Pippen and Rodman LeBron would probably have lobbied the front office to go out and sign or trade for.
It'd probably look real good if they had everyone.
Billy is the real deal as a NBA coach.
Ball alone is probably a path to the ECF.
Doc Rivers? Nick Nurse? Lakers insider's guide to Frank Vogel's replacement - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)
Sports Fanatics talked about this a bit last night. If you are Nick Nurse do you really want this job when you can probably hold out for one that will have a better roster eventually and also not have to deal with the LeBron drama? Pretty much know coming in that you have to cater to LeBron along with the oldest roster in the NBA and if you don't bring a championship you'll be gone in short order.
Another thing I just thought of, how many coaches has LeBron gotten fired in his career? MJ had Phil Jackson, Magic had Pat Riley, LeBron on the other hand... Spolstra is still in Miami even after LeBron left but LeBron has had 5 different coaches fired:
Paul Silas
Mike Brown
David Blatt
Luke Walton
and now Frank Vogel and he just won a championship 2 years ago
Sports Fanatics talked about this a bit last night. If you are Nick Nurse do you really want this job when you can probably hold out for one that will have a better roster eventually and also not have to deal with the LeBron drama? Pretty much know coming in that you have to cater to LeBron along with the oldest roster in the NBA and if you don't bring a championship you'll be gone in short order.
Another thing I just thought of, how many coaches has LeBron gotten fired in his career? MJ had Phil Jackson, Magic had Pat Riley, LeBron on the other hand... Spolstra is still in Miami even after LeBron left but LeBron has had 5 different coaches fired:
Paul Silas
Mike Brown
David Blatt
Luke Walton
and now Frank Vogel and he just won a championship 2 years ago
Nurse already has a better roster, and one that's only going to get better in the next few years. He also coaches in a way that would be a horrible fit for a team like the Lakers. He puts a heavy load on his starters, both in terms of minutes played and style of defense. Good luck getting LeBron and a team full of veterans to buy into aggressive trapping defense 30 feet from the basket at this point, this isn't 2011-13 LeBron.
Also almost all great players get bad coaches fired, Magic did it, Michael did it, LeBron's done it. He's played for one very good coach in his career, Spoelstra, he's still there. Running through Kevin Loughery, Stan Albreck and Doug Collins isn't a knock on Jordan.
I wouldn't consider Doug Collins and Paul Westhead bad coaches. Collins maybe not the right fit in Chicago at the time but he did lead the Bulls to the conference finals the year he got fired. Paul Westhead had a .689 winning percentage with the Lakers and won a title but yes Magic did help get him fired because he did not like the style of play.
Name another player in the history of the NBA that has been catered to more than LeBron when it comes to player personnel and coaching decisions. He's jumped teams multiple times chasing titles and fame and been basically given more control than any player has yet its still never enough. I'm still laughing how he and AD thought Westbrook would be the piece to a title run this year only to watch it all crash and burn to miss the playoffs and now they are strapped with Westbrook's huge player option he will surely exercise and little on the roster for trade assets.
Outside of Chicago, Collins had three years in Detroit, no playoff series wins, two years in Washington, no playoff appearances, three years in Philly, one playoff series win. Not a real strong resume. Westhead was 72-174 outside of the Lakers.
I would agree that he's had more control than probably any other player, the NBA as a whole has trended to be a lot more player influenced over the last 15 years, in large part because of LeBron. The most successful run of his career was with the one organization he's played for that didn't bend to his every whim, which is not a coincidence.
He had a lot of influence in putting together this roster, which mostly people thought wasn't a title contender, although I don't think many people thought they would totally miss the playoffs. Not disagreeing with any of that, I just don't think the turning over of coaches is really that unusual, organizations taking the player's side over the coach's is nothing new.
I do think you're going to see a change in the teambuilding trend over the next few years away from trying to put together a big three type of roster. If you look at what the Mavs are doing, moving off of Porzingas to get lesser guys on an individual basis but who fit better around Doncic. Look at the Lakers, Clippers, Nets and now 76ers, none of those teams are in great positions after going all in to get multiple superstars, the 76ers have to be concerned about what a contract extension James Harden looks like next year and beyond.
Compare that to teams like Miami, Toronto, Dallas, Memphis, where they have deep, balanced rosters built around one star. Phoenix and Milwaukee somewhat have the big three set up, but those were arrived at more naturally. Milwaukee with Middleton and Giannis developing together over years, with Middleton obviously being the number two guy, Phoenix with three guys in different stages of their careers, who fit together roster wise, that allowed them to build solid depth around them. Neither was a case of trade everything to get space to bring in superstars and figure out the rest later.
LeBron never really played on a team that was built to perfectly take advantage of his talents, and a big part of that is his own fault. But those early Cavs teams were set up in a way that now looks like a great example of what not to do when building a team around a guy like LeBron. Put him next to guard who can't shoot - perfect we got 2 of those, Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, how about slow moving bigs to clog up the lane, got a whole bunch of those guys - and we'll add an old ass Shaq, perfect addition. Miami figured it out but it took almost two full years and they had already handcuffed themselves with some terrible moves, giving Joel Anthony a huge deal, and Wade and Miller being hampered by injuries.
Compare that to teams like Miami, Toronto, Dallas, Memphis, where they have deep, balanced rosters built around one star. Phoenix and Milwaukee somewhat have the big three set up, but those were arrived at more naturally. Milwaukee with Middleton and Giannis developing together over years, with Middleton obviously being the number two guy, Phoenix with three guys in different stages of their careers, who fit together roster wise, that allowed them to build solid depth around them. Neither was a case of trade everything to get space to bring in superstars and figure out the rest later.
LeBron never really played on a team that was built to perfectly take advantage of his talents, and a big part of that is his own fault. But those early Cavs teams were set up in a way that now looks like a great example of what not to do when building a team around a guy like LeBron. Put him next to guard who can't shoot - perfect we got 2 of those, Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, how about slow moving bigs to clog up the lane, got a whole bunch of those guys - and we'll add an old ass Shaq, perfect addition. Miami figured it out but it took almost two full years and they had already handcuffed themselves with some terrible moves, giving Joel Anthony a huge deal, and Wade and Miller being hampered by injuries.
