***#3 Iowa State at #10 Missouri (Wed., 6:30)***

[CyGold]

Double boots in an the bottom guy stuck on the mat is the worse. At least stale mate it. Not sure how a guy can get to his base with both legs gone

I agree with this to an extent. I'd actually like to see the position stopped and restarted. However, I'm a huge fan of folkstyle and riding the opponent. Here's my idea - I'd give 1 point for 1 min riding time and award a second point for 2+ minutes of rt. However I'd also have the ref auto stop each match after the first 1 min of RT and restart (unless bottom buy has his back exposed - then the auto stop comes as soon as he's off his back). After that I'd have the ref auto stop/restart after each 30 seconds of RT thereafter. This gives the bottom guy a bit of an advantage with the auto-restarts. It also makes the top guy work for a faster turn IF he is trying to do so. It also takes the pressure off the referee to have to call (or even determine IF it's) stalling on either bottom or top guy. I hate the stall on the bottom guy because it's clear to me that guy isn't truly stalling. He just may not have the skills to get out from the bottom. We don't call stalling on guys that are continually taken down on their feet because their opponent is just better than them. I think this would continue to reward and encourage tough riding (like Carr did) and also give the bottom guy restarts to make something happen. Just my thoughts

 

[cywr89]

That win by Carr -- he put the 165 field on notice! Yonger's loss isn't predictive of much, IMO. He's up and down like that. I think he'll be there when it matters. I don't understand why Coleman comes out flat sometimes. Schuyler is far and away most improved and a threat to all but the top 2-3, who simply have the natural speed and strength to outdo him. Everyone else performed within their range of expectations.

Swiderski is where any reasonable person would expect him to be as a true freshman in top-level D1 competition. Frankly, too many bought into early hype. I like to think the staff was more level headed--that they're wrestling him not because they thought he'd be a 4x phenom, but because they had a team that could vie for hardware (pre injuries) and CS was the best option for team points. He'll win a couple at Nationals, but it's time to see things as they are. He's not "back," because he never "left."

You act like it was the coaches decision. I’m sure they gave some input but at the end of the day if he was the best kid it would be his decision to wrestle or not.

 

[theshadow]

The ultimate goal of wrestling is to pin your opponent, not ride him like a mule for 4 minutes.

The RT point promotes inaction (and top stalling). Get rid of it.

Institute a 30 (or 45) second turn clock. If no swipes when the clock expires, restart in neutral (no escape point). If swipes/NF earned/NF given, action continues and the clock resets.

The bottom man has to try and get out quickly, or he doesn't get 1 point.
The top man can't stall his way through the period, and knows the opponent will get a neutral restart if he doesn't work a tilt.

They've already cheapened the NF rules to inflate scoring, so why not promote more action.

 

[CyGold]

Now that I've solved the mat wrestling problem (see post above here's my other thoughts on the dual.

125 - I liked what I saw from Perryman. Hindsight is 20/20 with those that say they wanted Fuessley. Rolling out the TrFr worked with Gaitain against UNI and didn't work against Iowa. I do think it provides fuel for Perryman to continue to improve as it shows the coaches see a bright future in him. I also wonder if they didn't have a in-room wrestle off because it could have the opposite effect on Fuessley. Like everyone else, I'm waiting to hear on Cabanban. I hope we can qualify this weight and getting 1 win at ncaa's would exceed my expectations.

133 - Great clutch win when the momentum turned against us.

141 - I think a lot of people may not realize how good Hart is. I can remember him taking apart Parker when I thought Parker was a top AA contender. Hart is a contender so I'm not surprised. It's also obvious that CS weakness is on the bottom. I'm also concerned with him not stealing a spot to nationals but we have to let it play out.

149 - Needed to finish one of those shots. Wrestled tough for 6:59 minutes (glad that TD at the end of the second period was after time expired). He's right there and I don't think anybody would be surprised for him to flip that match at conference. Hope he uses this as fuel. He can be a conf champ and is still a dark horse ncaa champ which is really exciting.

157 - he is what he is. I hope he can win a match or two at nationals and score us some points. I also hope he exceeds my expectations there.

165 - Thanks DC for taking the sting out of that loss! That was impressive and puts him in the #1 seed pole position.

174 - Showed some toughness and I appreciated the TD later in the match to put him back in it. He was really close to the headlock would could have swung the whole dual... That said I'd much rather him pull that off in the Blood Round at ncaa's. Wouldn't that be a shocker

197 - YB - I like that the coaches told him to choose down. I didn't like the results but know we know. I'll bet they make a different choice at Conf/Nationals. It also gives them some film & time to continue to try to improve this position. At some point I believe YB is going to need to escape at Nationals to achieve what I assume is his goal of winning the whole freaking thing.

Hwt - Sammy I could kiss ya! What a dramatic improvement he has shown this year. Keep it rolling.

 

[CyGold]

The ultimate goal of wrestling is to pin your opponent, not ride him like a mule for 4 minutes.

The RT point promotes inaction (and top stalling). Get rid of it.

Institute a 30 (or 45) second turn clock. If no swipes when the clock expires, restart in neutral (no escape point). If swipes/NF earned/NF given, action continues and the clock resets.

The bottom man has to try and get out quickly, or he doesn't get 1 point.
The top man can't stall his way through the period, and knows the opponent will get a neutral restart if he doesn't work a tilt.

They've already cheapened the NF rules to inflate scoring, so why not promote more action.

I respectfully disagree. I could just go watch freestyle if I wanted to see guys belly down and only care about not getting turned. Riding to me is also a skillset that I enjoy watching. It makes this sport even tougher. IF your going to be really good you have to figure out how to get out from the bottom. And the elite figure out how to dominate on the top position. It often takes them time to work a turn or pinning combo. Paniro is a good example of someone who is pretty good from bottom. However, IMO he isn't high level on top which gives some of his opponents a slight edge (like Mauller).

 

[CyGold]

I agree. That being said, I am a little bit surprised that we don't have any guys that throw legs in - especially when we need to ride in short time. If it is allowed, use it when it makes sense for the team.

Pretty sure DC had the legs in at some point in his victory over O'toole. He's got that in his arsenal which makes him even more dangerous.

 

[WhizzerClone]

In regards to 141 and CS "stalling"...I will scream this until it comes back...a parallel ride call HAS TO COME BACK. Sitting on a hip/leg/ankle while taking a few cross faces and wrist rides is not offense. Figure four the leg and double boots with no effort to turn is not offense. And while doing that, the bottom guy literally can not move or he's going to his back. I get dark rage spots in my eyes when I see the bottom guy get dinged for stalling the way the rule is now. It's a bullsh*t scenario and it HAS to change.

I agree with what you're saying. If a guy is laying parallel then by all means hit him with a stall, but Hart wasn't just sitting parallel the whole time (maybe for short periods of time). He worked a tilt, he had a cradle locked up at one point, he was working a bow and arrow. He was working on top.

 

[alabamacyclone]

I respectfully disagree. I could just go watch freestyle if I wanted to see guys belly down and only care about not getting turned. Riding to me is also a skillset that I enjoy watching. It makes this sport even tougher. IF your going to be really good you have to figure out how to get out from the bottom. And the elite figure out how to dominate on the top position. It often takes them time to work a turn or pinning combo. Paniro is a good example of someone who is pretty good from bottom. However, IMO he isn't high level on top which gives some of his opponents a slight edge (like Mauller).

I generally agree with this assessment regarding RT. Wrestling isn't just about pinning your opponent, although that is the ultimate victory. If that is the only goal, then why not just do away with timed matches and just wrestle until someone gets a pin or quits. Wrestling is also about control and dominating your opponent. Riding is one of the measurements of control, and showing your superior ability demands recognition in the form of a RT point. I would not want to see multiple points for RT. Rather, I want to see more restarts with boots in or parallel riding as opposed to stall calls for top or bottom position. I am also not a fan of the 4pt near fall. I liked the 3pt where you got a greater reward, but it did not put the match out of reach for the competition with one good tilt. A six pt move is almost insurmountable, and if completed early in the match, effectively ends the match early on. On the other hand, I would not mind a 3pt takedown if you initiated the action. Reward aggressiveness and action. Als, 1pt push out rule would do away with some of the edge wrestling/stalling that we see.

 

[Land Grant]

You act like it was the coaches decision. I’m sure they gave some input but at the end of the day if he was the best kid it would be his decision to wrestle or not.

I readily admit that I don't know how this kind of decision gets made. I'm predisposed to think that if the staff felt it was in an athlete's best interest to redshirt, they could make it happen. Again, I don't think its terrible that he's wrestling. Its just not surprising to me how he's performing.

 

[theshadow]

I respectfully disagree. I could just go watch freestyle if I wanted to see guys belly down and only care about not getting turned. Riding to me is also a skillset that I enjoy watching.

And I would counter that riding is only really a skill set if it's a means to an end.

Riding for the sake of riding isn't a skill. Riding with no intent to turn isn't a skill. Do something with it. Anyone can hook an ankle/leg or throw the boots in, lay there and look busy. And the way the rules are currently written/enforced, there's no penalty for doing nothing on top.

As for bellying down and not caring about getting turned, my proposal still offers a point for an escape. If someone is content to just not get turned, they're probably going to lose. Would you rather be in neutral position, behind 2-1 or 2-0? What about 4-2 or 4-0?

 

[buf87]

I do think the riding time point has got a lot more important. So many matches end up 3-1 or 3-2.

I wish there was a way to emphasize a takedown more. 2 takedown and 2 intentional releases ends up 4-2 and a tilt can get you 4.

 

[HGoat1]

Dissapointed in the overall result but not terribly surprised. I think we saw some of the effect of having 5 weighins in 12 days and 3 weigh ins in 5 days. That is a big deal at this level.

So pumped about David Carr. I was pleasantly surprised how cleanly and easily he was able to finish. He looked so good, man. I won't be surprised to see O'toole have a new gameplan, DC will have to be ready at Big 12's.

 

[HGoat1]

also i'd like to see riding time die. Or maybe you only get the point if you've earned back pts.

 

[JM4CY]

I would rather didn't do anything RT or anything else for that matter and just spent all their collective energy figuring out WTF stalling is and getting it actually called with even a moderate level of consistency.

 

[matclone]

If we want to eliminate riding time and the control aspect of folk, then maybe we should just adopt freestyle.

Btw, I like all three styles (Folk, FS, GR). Folk is entrenched in the U.S.

 

[CycloneFan97]

I don't think getting rid of the riding time point would necessarily be a bad thing. I would hope it would get the top guy to emphasize turning and going for a pin rather than just keeping the guy down. I also agree with @JM4CY and that there needs to be a rule for stalling on top, whether that be a parallel ride or just sitting on someone's ankle

 

[crablegs]

If we want to eliminate riding time and the control aspect of folk, then maybe we should just adopt freestyle.

Btw, I like all three styles (Folk, FS, GR). Folk is entrenched in the U.S.

I also like folk, and am a big fan of top wrestling. That said, riding to ride is no fun for anyone. There is already plenty of incentive to learn to turn. If guys aren’t going to try to turn, I’d rather have them cut than try to hang in the ankle for a minute.

 

[CycloneVet]

Double boots in an the bottom guy stuck on the mat is the worse. At least stale mate it. Not sure how a guy can get to his base with both legs gone

This always brings be back to my son as a freshman when I was talking to him after his match. He was working to get out pretty hard and his opponent had the double boots in, and the ref said “we need some action bottom”. My son in our conversation said “I wanted to say to the ref, wtf do you think I was trying to do?”

I have always found that to be hilarious because he wasn’t trying to stall he physically was having trouble moving because of the tough leg ride.

 

[4theheckofit]

This always brings be back to my son as a freshman when I was talking to him after his match. He was working to get out pretty hard and his opponent had the double boots in, and the ref said “we need some action bottom”. My son in our conversation said “I wanted to say to the ref, wtf do you think I was trying to do?”

I have always found that to be hilarious because he wasn’t trying to stall he physically was having trouble moving because of the tough leg ride.

This! Exactly! ^^^^

After being in Des Moines this week it's fun to watch both top and bottom constantly trying to score points. It's the way it should be.

I also understand that the competition level is extremely different, but man, those high school matches for the most part are action packed from start to finish.

 

[SaraV]