Yeah it is already just forgotten about.
84 Dune on the other hand has some fantastic elements. Anybody who loves these new Dune movies and loves weird 80s movies is in for a real treat if they never saw it.
Dune Universe Thread
- Thread starter Triggermv
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Yeah it is already just forgotten about.
84 Dune on the other hand has some fantastic elements. Anybody who loves these new Dune movies and loves weird 80s movies is in for a real treat if they never saw it.
Yes, all of the great houses are human.
Now things get weird later on in the series, but that’s a different topic.
The reason why the Reverend Mother tests Paul to see if he is “human” is to see if he can control himself. Their definition of human is more of an allegory, Humans can control their base nature & it’s very important for someone with the powers & breeding pedigree of Paul to have that. Otherwise he risks becoming an abomination.
I actually liked the third book more than the 2nd. I stopped after 4. Once you get to Paul's grandson becoming emperor for over 1000 years and eventually turning into a sandworm, you've ventured into areas I'm not prepared to go to.
The Bene Gesserit are an analog for the medieval church in the feudal world of Dune. They never hold power directly, but they are profoundly able to influence it behind the scenes in various ways.
Major spoilers for the whole series...
George Lucas stole the snot out of this twist for Vader and Luke in The Empire Strikes Back. Then he stole it again for Luke and Leia. The whole series needs to borrow a different plot gimmick.
It is strongly implied in the original novels that Gaius Helen Mohiam (the Reverend Mother who tests Paul at the beginning and has the ear of the Emperor) is Jessica's mother and Paul's grandmother. Reading between the lines, the Bene Gesserit had two purposes of "breeding" the Baron and Mohiam...
(1.) It has the political purpose of creating a daughter (Jessica) to marry into the Atreides line (Duke Leto) and merge the Atreides/Harkonnen bloodlines (Paul/Alia) ending the feud between the two houses. The Bene Gesserit planned for Paul to be a daughter (something Jessica disobeyed them over, a flaw in their plan) who could then be married with the Harkonnen heir (Feyd-Rautha) that would have an ironclad claim on House Atreides and House Harkonnen, the two most powerful of the Great Houses, who could then marry into the Corrino line to give a single Atreides/Harkonnen/Corrino heir absolute power and with the abilities of the Kwisatz Haderach -- a male Reverend Mother sitting on the throne under their thumb.
The Bene Gesserit expected to control this emperor (as they thought they could Feyd but didn't think they could Paul, and hence their participation in the Emperor's plot against the Atreides).
Putting this plan into action required Mohiam to seduce the Baron (similar to what we saw between Lady Margot and Feyd to preserve that element of the bloodline) and for Jessica to charm Leto, who genuinely fell in love with her and believed her to be loyal to the Atreides first (which she eventually was).
(2.) Simultaneously, they were introducing some inbreeding to their breeding program to emphasize certain traits and genes that would lead to the Kwisatz Haderach. Had "Paul" as a daughter and Feyd married as was their plan, that would be a marriage between two first cousins once removed. But, again, Jessica screwed everything up by genuinely falling in love with Leto and giving him a son they did not plan for. Turns out the Kwisatz Haderach showed up a generation or two early and ruined their plans.
This situation is what gives such weight to the final "boss fight" between Paul and Feyd. Not only is it the final confrontation in the millennia-long feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen with the throne (implied with Princess Irulan being there ready to be married) likely going to the winner, but if the Bene Gesserit had their way, then it should have been a wedding instead of a fight to the death.
This depth of plotting is one of the things that makes the series great. Dune is heavily influenced by Shakespeare and the "Great Houses" of the various history plays (e.g. Richard III).
It is strongly implied in the original novels that Gaius Helen Mohiam (the Reverend Mother who tests Paul at the beginning and has the ear of the Emperor) is Jessica's mother and Paul's grandmother. Reading between the lines, the Bene Gesserit had two purposes of "breeding" the Baron and Mohiam...
(1.) It has the political purpose of creating a daughter (Jessica) to marry into the Atreides line (Duke Leto) and merge the Atreides/Harkonnen bloodlines (Paul/Alia) ending the feud between the two houses. The Bene Gesserit planned for Paul to be a daughter (something Jessica disobeyed them over, a flaw in their plan) who could then be married with the Harkonnen heir (Feyd-Rautha) that would have an ironclad claim on House Atreides and House Harkonnen, the two most powerful of the Great Houses, who could then marry into the Corrino line to give a single Atreides/Harkonnen/Corrino heir absolute power and with the abilities of the Kwisatz Haderach -- a male Reverend Mother sitting on the throne under their thumb.
The Bene Gesserit expected to control this emperor (as they thought they could Feyd but didn't think they could Paul, and hence their participation in the Emperor's plot against the Atreides).
Putting this plan into action required Mohiam to seduce the Baron (similar to what we saw between Lady Margot and Feyd to preserve that element of the bloodline) and for Jessica to charm Leto, who genuinely fell in love with her and believed her to be loyal to the Atreides first (which she eventually was).
(2.) Simultaneously, they were introducing some inbreeding to their breeding program to emphasize certain traits and genes that would lead to the Kwisatz Haderach. Had "Paul" as a daughter and Feyd married as was their plan, that would be a marriage between two first cousins once removed. But, again, Jessica screwed everything up by genuinely falling in love with Leto and giving him a son they did not plan for. Turns out the Kwisatz Haderach showed up a generation or two early and ruined their plans.
This situation is what gives such weight to the final "boss fight" between Paul and Feyd. Not only is it the final confrontation in the millennia-long feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen with the throne (implied with Princess Irulan being there ready to be married) likely going to the winner, but if the Bene Gesserit had their way, then it should have been a wedding instead of a fight to the death.
This depth of plotting is one of the things that makes the series great. Dune is heavily influenced by Shakespeare and the "Great Houses" of the various history plays (e.g. Richard III).
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Went to see Dune 2 this morning. I thought it was incredible. Production wise one of the best films I've ever seen and seeing it in IMAX is a must.
I got the unique perspective of watching it with my 13 year old daughter as well. We watched the first movie a couple of nights ago. She thought it was really interesting and wanted to see the second one with me so we went this morning. She was intrigued by the story so much I took her to the book store afterwards and bought her a copy of Dune (she reads a LOT). Then we ate lunch and had some interesting conversations about the themes in the movie, discussing the power of leaders, particulary ones of faith, and whether Paul's ascension to leadership was good for the Fremen people. We discussed whether Paul was really a divinely chosen leader or simply a result of the schemes of the Bene Gesserit, which she assured me it was the latter. It was a lot of fun being able to connect with my daughter over this experience. I get the movie does not explain a lot of the lore, but it does a really good job of touching on the core themes that Herbert was going for in his book IMO.
I got the unique perspective of watching it with my 13 year old daughter as well. We watched the first movie a couple of nights ago. She thought it was really interesting and wanted to see the second one with me so we went this morning. She was intrigued by the story so much I took her to the book store afterwards and bought her a copy of Dune (she reads a LOT). Then we ate lunch and had some interesting conversations about the themes in the movie, discussing the power of leaders, particulary ones of faith, and whether Paul's ascension to leadership was good for the Fremen people. We discussed whether Paul was really a divinely chosen leader or simply a result of the schemes of the Bene Gesserit, which she assured me it was the latter. It was a lot of fun being able to connect with my daughter over this experience. I get the movie does not explain a lot of the lore, but it does a really good job of touching on the core themes that Herbert was going for in his book IMO.
Saw it today and thought it was an amazing movie. Compared to the Marvel and Star Wars movies that they make these days, it just looked so much better. Cinematography, acting, SFX, everything. I mean, they aren't even comparable.
Paul seeking vengeance for his father’s murder (and the rest of the Atreides) and Michael seeking vengeance for the attempted murder of his father, the murder of his first wife and the child she was carrying (even if they were aiming for him and not her directly), and for Sonny’s betrayal creates a very similar set of motivations between them. They never wanted that life, but certain choices they made to avenge or protect their families made it inevitable.
Steven Spielberg Tells Denis Villeneuve That ‘Dune 2’ Is ‘One of the Most Brilliant Science-Fiction Films I’ve Ever Seen’
Steven Spielberg praises Denis Villeneuve's "Dune 2" as "one of the most brilliant science fiction films I’ve ever seen."
variety.com
Interesting thoughts with these two. Here's the problem: if you lose the neck beards, it crushes your movie, think The Last Jedi.
Stormlight, and I've read them all, could never be adapted in a way to both satisfy the neckbeards and random moviegoers. That's the sweet spot, and that is what Dune is doing well. It's way too long and if we're honest with ourselves there is way, way too much magic/CGI stuff that I'm not sure they could actually pull off. I like Sanderson but I think he works best on the page.
Same problem here IMO. First off, I love the Dark Tower and it's literally the only Stephen King books I've ever even finished. I think it's a masterpiece. But it's Western influenced, which people don't show out for, and people will lose their minds if there isn't and hour and a half of them talking with a riddling AI train, but if that does happen normies will be absolutely flabbergasted.
IMO Denis is a singular entity. His movies are stunning visually and you could give him the keys to any movie and he would make it look absolutely unbelievable. I think he's my favorite filmmaker currently working.
He's hit or miss for me.
Sicario is one of the best movies of its decade. Super taunt thriller/action film.
Dune 1 and Dune 2 (especially) are all-timer sci-fi and indeed all-timer films.
Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 look cool, but I'm not sure their plots and characters work. The central sci-fi conceit of Arrival (to learn the alien language makes it so you can see the future like the Kwisatz Haderach) never worked for me. And 2049 has way too many subplots and lacks the thematic depth of the original.
One good plot is better than a bunch of meh ones that eventually make your movie incoherent.
I'm going to worship him if he nails Messiah.
Denis Villeneuve and Legendary Developing ‘Dune 3’ and ‘Nuclear War: A Scenario’ Film Adaptation
Denis Villeneuve is developing 'Dune 3' and potentially reuniting with Legendary for "Nuclear War: A Scenario."
variety.com
