NBA: ***Official 2017-2018 Playoffs Thread***

[HFCS]

I won’t get into that too much as I’m not a LeBron fan at all, but I’m absolutely confident Jordan never had to go against a team like the Warriors. That is just ridiculous and I will forever complain that the NBA should have never allowed the Durant trade to happen. I really think the Cavs biggest problem right now is coaching. They are terrible defensively and there is no creativity offensively. Celtics switch every screen and the entire team outside of LeBron and Love look totally useless.

This is easily the least talented team Lebron has been on in the last 10 years. I won’t get into how that compares with Jordan as I was too young to follow basketball in the 90s and don’t really care anyways.

No doubt GSW teams were the best faced among the 12 teams both faced, but he lost to some teams that weren't that great either. Jordan's ECF were ludicrously tougher than LBJ's. Just in the scheme of things teammates and opponents is a DEBATE, why debate the debatable when you can bring up the obvious gigantic difference in coaching quality.

Coaching is not a debate, Jordan had better coaches. Not just Phil Jackson but Tex Winters and Doug Collins. There's a strong case that 3 of MJ's NBA coaches were better than LBJ's best. I don't get why LBJ fans don't take that angle, probably too young to really know about any of it.

To me the inside inside discussion is whether MJ or LBJ's personality had any responsibility for the coaches they played for.

 

[CyJack13]

I laugh at the people in the Jordan v LeBron debates who think LeBron's teammates have always been worse or his opponents have always been better. That's simply not true to any great extent and probably a wash at best.

The much more legitimate argument a LeBron fan should make is that Jordan's coach(es) were much better. Doug Collins would be LeBron's best NBA coach without even getting to Phil Jackson. Whether LBJ himself has anything to do with this is a separate but interesting discussion.

Jordan's team won 55 games the year after he left with Pete Meyers replacing him, I forgot how many games the Cavs and Heat won after LeBron left, but I'm sure it was right around there or more.

 

[HFCS]

Jordan's team won 55 games the year after he left with Pete Meyers replacing him, I forgot how many games the Cavs and Heat won after LeBron left, but I'm sure it was right around there or more.

Did I say every Jordan supporting cast was as good as every LeBron supporting cast? Do I think Pippen was better in his prime than Bosh after LBJ and Wade left? That's somehow the determining factor? What a weird metric, probably the weirdest metric I've heard argued. It also gets back to the point I'm making anyway that Jackson is a better coach than LBJ has ever had.

LeBron has had the better offensive players around him. Jordan had the better defensive players around him. Part of that is likely due to the era. Jordan never had an offensive player as electric as Kyrie was the previous two seasons around him, likewise Wade early in Miami before he fell off sharply. LBJ hasn't had as tenacious a defender as Pippen or Rodman on his teams, at least none that come to my mind.

It's a debate on teammates, nobody can know. Jordan played almost his entire career with one or zero other all stars on his team, most of his teams were role players, this idea that his teams were loaded top to bottom is fantasy from young LBJ fanboys and partly because every MJ teammate became a legend. They were well constructed and well coached teams during the title run but nothing like the superfriend Heat or GSW teams of recent times. It's not a debate that Jordan had much better coaches than LBJ in Jackson, Winters and Collins not to mention better coaching stability. For whatever reason most LBJ fans want to argue the debatable aspects as if they are fact and deny the most obvious edge Jordan had in better coaching situations.

 

[CyJack13]

Did I say every Jordan supporting cast was as good as every LeBron supporting cast? Do I think Pippen was better in his prime than Bosh after LBJ and Wade left? That's somehow the determining factor? What a weird metric, probably the weirdest metric I've heard argued. It also gets back to the point I'm making anyway that Jackson is a better coach than LBJ has ever had.

LeBron has had the better offensive players around him. Jordan had the better defensive players around him. Part of that is likely due to the era. Jordan never had an offensive player as electric as Kyrie was the previous two seasons around him, likewise Wade early in Miami before he fell off sharply. LBJ hasn't had as tenacious a defender as Pippen or Rodman on his teams, at least none that come to my mind.

It's a debate on teammates, nobody can know. Jordan played almost his entire career with one or zero other all stars on his team, most of his teams were role players, this idea that his teams were loaded top to bottom is fantasy from young LBJ fanboys and partly because every MJ teammate became a legend. They were well constructed and well coached teams during the title run but nothing like the superfriend Heat or GSW teams of recent times. It's not a debate that Jordan had much better coaches than LBJ in Jackson, Winters and Collins not to mention better coaching stability. For whatever reason most LBJ fans want to argue the debatable aspects as if they are fact and deny the most obvious edge Jordan had in better coaching situations.

No one is saying Jordan played with 11 other all-stars, that's a strawman you apparently enjoy building. They were well built teams with better depth than the teams LeBron had been on. In his first stint in Cleveland, the Cavs surround him with guards who can't shoot and immobile bigs, they basically built the exact opposite team that you would want around LeBron. Miami didn't have the cap space to build good depth around their stars, and Wade fell off quicker than people anticipated, but those were still pretty damn good supporting casts and solid coaching so that was similar to what Jordan had with the Bulls. The Cavs are now stuck in place where they have no flexibility and a flawed rotation, part of that is LeBron's doing too, he was the one who forced the Cavs to overpay for Tristan Thompson, it's his fault Kyrie's gone too.

Jordan's last three peat was built through a salary cap loophole where the Bulls were capped out and then able to sign Jordan on top of that for more than most team's entire payroll. These are all just facts, not really debatable.

 

[HFCS]

No one is saying Jordan played with 11 other all-stars, that's a strawman you apparently enjoy building. They were well built teams with better depth than the teams LeBron had been on. In his first stint in Cleveland, the Cavs surround him with guards who can't shoot and immobile bigs, they basically built the exact opposite team that you would want around LeBron. Miami didn't have the cap space to build good depth around their stars, and Wade fell off quicker than people anticipated, but those were still pretty damn good supporting casts and solid coaching so that was similar to what Jordan had with the Bulls. The Cavs are now stuck in place where they have no flexibility and a flawed rotation, part of that is LeBron's doing too, he was the one who forced the Cavs to overpay for Tristan Thompson, it's his fault Kyrie's gone too.

Jordan's last three peat was built through a salary cap loophole where the Bulls were capped out and then able to sign Jordan on top of that for more than most team's entire payroll. These are all just facts, not really debatable.

Disagree on a lot of that. I can see how a younger LBJ fan could convince himself of a lot of it. It's not like MJ's early teams were dynamite when he arrived either, he ran into buzz saws in the East and LBJ broke through with a similar team early on because the buzz saw teams were in the West. Teammates are very comparable, it's a fun debate. I'll give LBJ a slight edge in his Finals opponents being tougher due to GSW now, but MJ's ECF have been tougher thus far. Coaches which you refuse to comment on are a gigantic lopsided advantage for MJ in terms of helping him. You proved it yourself that Pippen and a bunch of role players still won 55 games, do you think Jackson isn't part of that? Are you completely blind to what Stevens is doing in Boston minus two all stars? Coaching matters a lot, MJ had great consistent coaching. LeBron has struggled to find that, maybe by no fault of his own, that's an interesting discussion though.

Weird that you can't agree with me on the one obvious advantage MJ had that isn't really a debate among rational people.

 

[CyJack13]

Disagree on a lot of that. I can see how a younger LBJ fan could convince himself of a lot of it. It's not like MJ's early teams were dynamite when he arrived either, he ran into buzz saws in the East and LBJ broke through with a similar team early on because the buzz saw teams were in the West. Teammates are very comparable, it's a fun debate. I'll give LBJ a slight edge in his Finals opponents being tougher due to GSW now, but MJ's ECF have been tougher thus far. Coaches which you refuse to comment on are a gigantic lopsided advantage for MJ in terms of helping him. You proved it yourself that Pippen and a bunch of role players still won 55 games, do you think Jackson isn't part of that? Are you completely blind to what Stevens is doing in Boston minus two all stars? Coaching matters a lot, MJ had great consistent coaching. LeBron has struggled to find that, maybe by no fault of his own, that's an interesting discussion though.

Weird that you can't agree with me on the one obvious advantage MJ had that isn't really a debate among rational people.

When you include Doug Collins in the good coaching category, it's not really worth debating with you.

 

[jbindm]

The Phoenix Suns have the first overall pick. Who would you take - Ayton, Doncic, or Bagley? Or someone else?

 

[HFCS]

The Phoenix Suns have the first overall pick. Who would you take - Ayton, Doncic, or Bagley? Or someone else?

I guess you take Ayton although for whatever reason I can't get too excited about him.

I'm most curious to see how Omari Spellman turns out at the next level. I get why he'd declare this year, but I think another year in college would've given a lot better indicator into how good he might really be. Very high risk/reward for teams in the 6-30 range picks.

 

[HFCS]

When you include Doug Collins in the good coaching category, it's not really worth debating with you.

I'm surprised someone is the champion of Lue, Silas, Blatt, Spoelstra, and Brown while ridiculing Doug Collins coaching career. I'd never dream someone would even take up the discussion with me.

He's the bookends that are slightly better than LBJ's coaches, the meat in the middle is two Naismith Hall of Fame coaches. It's the one clear external advantage MJ had that can't be debated. The teammates stuff is crybaby nonsense from youngsters who just don't know.

 

[jbindm]

I guess you take Ayton although for whatever reason I can't get too excited about him.

I'm most curious to see how Omari Spellman turns out at the next level. I get why he'd declare this year, but I think another year in college would've given a lot better indicator into how good he might really be. Very high risk/reward for teams in the 6-30 range picks.

Yeah, from what I've gathered the thing about Ayton that bothers scouts is that for all his size and athleticism he's an awful rim protector. Not a dealbreaker, but somebody that long with those hops ought to be a prolific shot blocker. And it's fair to wonder how someone like him fits in the modern game. If he can move well enough laterally and quickly enough on the perimeter then it's no big deal. But there just aren't many NBA offenses that run inside out in this era. The Timberwolves are kinda/sorta making it work with KAT and the Pistons are trying it with Drummond, but I think that's about it. Short list.

 

[Cy$]

budenholzer to the bucks

 

[CyJack13]

I'm surprised someone is the champion of Lue, Silas, Blatt, Spoelstra, and Brown while ridiculing Doug Collins coaching career. I'd never dream someone would even take up the discussion with me.

He's the bookends that are slightly better than LBJ's coaches, the meat in the middle is two Naismith Hall of Fame coaches. It's the one clear external advantage MJ had that can't be debated. The teammates stuff is crybaby nonsense from youngsters who just don't know.

Lue and Brown aren't good coaches, not sure why you think I'm championing them. Blatt didn't really get a fair shot. Spoelstra is a very solid coach. I'm assuming you didn't watch the Bulls play under Collins, you've made it clear on here before that your Bulls knowledge starts after Jordan had already won titles, but keep building straw man arguments as you like to do

 

[stormchaser2014]

Bucks hire Hakws coach. 4 year deal.

 

[Doc]

Bucks hire Hakws coach. 4 year deal.

From what I've heard/read he's pretty highly respected as a coach. Should be an upgrade at the least. Provided him and Giannis get along.

 

[HFCS]

Lue and Brown aren't good coaches, not sure why you think I'm championing them. Blatt didn't really get a fair shot. Spoelstra is a very solid coach. I'm assuming you didn't watch the Bulls play under Collins, you've made it clear on here before that your Bulls knowledge starts after Jordan had already won titles, but keep building straw man arguments as you like to do

Confusing me with someone else. I’ve been a bulls fan since I was a kid starting admittedly because of rookie Jordan. Collected his early cards and still have them. Definitely watched every playoff game when Pistons took them down in ECF. I didn’t live in Chicago until just after the run, lived there 15 years. Maybe you’re misremembering that I lived in Chi but not during the dynasty.

My 15 years of Chicago residency can’t compare with the decades of you growing up living in Cleveland and Miami alternating I’m sure.

The point is Jordan had much better coaching on average. Not sure why you can’t agree with that but are certain about other aspects that are debatable.

 

[jbindm]

budenholzer to the bucks

Nice get for the Bucks. Budenholzer is known for player development, so maybe he can help get Giannis to another level and get a decent supporting cast for him. I read that Giannis and Kris Middleton met with him before the deal was made official so they could more or less sign off on it. Maybe it's telling that Bledsoe and Parker weren't part of that group.

 

[Cy$]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ague-will-eventually-have-team-in-kansas-city

It's bleacher report, but potential to have Kansas City add a NBA team. If that happens, would be interesting to see what happens to some of the college teams there.

 

[Rural]

Kansas City and St. Louis have solid pro basketball backrounds.

 

[IASTATE07]

Would they play in the Sprint Center or build a new arena?

 

[ClonesTwentyOne]

Cavs beat the **** out of celtics tonight. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cavs rattle off 4 straight wins.