Petition Against Chaplain

[jbhtexas]

I'm sorry your posts are just very confusing to me. You seem to claim one thing, site a bunch of evidence, and then come to a contrary conclusion. I guess I just don't understand what you believe...sorry.

I'm sorry that what I've written is confusing to you. I've done the best I can, and I don't think that what I've posted is internally inconsistent or contradictory. Some people's writing styles just don't click with some readers. I guess that's the case for you and me.

 

[Cyclone62]

I didn't think the first colonists were truly "fleeing" Europe. It's been 6 years since I've taken a colonial history course though, so I could be wrong. I thought many of them wanted to help their motherland(s), and start a new life to help the government.

 

[herbiedoobie]

Actually, if you are talking about the "Puritans", they travelled to the New World, because they'd worn out their welcome in the Old World. Seems their desire to run a religiously-based insurgency in England was not welcomed by the "powers-that-be". They then decided that if they built a "shining beacon" in America, the rest of the world would see how wonderful their doctrine was, and voluntarily convert to their "physical purity".

But, like any desire to create "heaven on earth," it failed.

 

[Cyclone62]

I was referring to the Puritans, but I've heard that story two different ways. The way I said it, and the way you said it herbie. I think it kind of depends on who you talk to for which story you'll get. There were a lot of reasons to leave, and I think that it was different for each immigrant/colonist.

 

[Cyclonepride]

All deserve to be heard...regardless if we agree or not. I think it's foolish...yet...it is what it is.

I completely agree that all deserve to be heard. The problem in our society right now is that a tiny minority opinion tends to rule the day. The first amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". So they are implying that the first amendment means that a football team at a state university who hires a champlain is tantamount to congress making a law establishing a religion. Completely and utterly ridiculous.

 

[Kyle]

I completely agree that all deserve to be heard. The problem in our society right now is that a tiny minority opinion tends to rule the day. The first amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". So they are implying that the first amendment means that a football team at a state university who hires a champlain is tantamount to congress making a law establishing a religion. Completely and utterly ridiculous.

I think some of my earlier posts covered this. The fact that you bolded Congress does point out that it is not technically the First Amendment being applied, but the 14th. I think my long list of examples highlighting the complexities of the establishment clause show that "law" should not be interpreted strictly, especially with the proliferation of administrative organizations.

A lot depends on how the question is framed. For instance, "Can a state university have being a Christian as a requirement for one of its positions?" (This would actually probably be addressed under the equal protection clause and statute, but I think there is still an establishment clause issue.) How about "Can a state university pay someone to be a religious leader?" These are debatable issues, but I don't think the suggestion that hiring a chaplain is unconstitutional is "completely and utterly ridiculous."

I also think it should be pointed out that "a football team at a state university who hires a champlain" is the same as that state university hiring a champlain.

 

[chadm]

In reply to this thread and in Support of Memorial Day Weekend. Here is a little something from FDR. Thanks to all that have been and currently are defending the USA.

[SIZE=+0]My Fellow Americans: [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Thy will be done, Almighty God.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Amen.[/SIZE]​

Franklin D. Roosevelt - June 6, 1944​

 

[Cyclone62]

All that does is show that FDR was a christian. We haven't had a non-christian president yet. What's your point? It's not like he said that "God told him" to start a war...

 

[chadm]

All that does is show that FDR was a christian. We haven't had a non-christian president yet. What's your point? It's not like he said that "God told him" to start a war...

My point is that the whole United States heard a prayer from the president. But today a prayer being said before a school graduation or sporting event is not allowed in alot of places. Why is someone from a public funded school held to a different view of seperation of church and state than the public funded highest position in the U.S.?
And I don't believe that they are children is a reason. The presidents prayer was also heard by children.

 

[Kyle]

My point is that the whole United States heard a prayer from the president. But today a prayer being said before a school graduation or sporting event is not allowed in alot of places. Why is someone from a public funded school held to a different view of seperation of church and state than the public funded highest position in the U.S.?
And I don't believe that they are children is a reason. The presidents prayer was also heard by children.

There is nothing wrong with a government official expressing religious beliefs. One difference is in the forum. If a school teacher wanted to set up a soap box in the park and preach, or pay for TV access to do so, that would be their right. However, if they want to make it part of a school sponsored event, that won't fly. There are a few basic reasons for this:
1. The forum is financed by the state.
2. What is said at the forum can be seen as endorsed by the state.
3. There is a captive audience that did not come there for the purpose of religion.

There is also at least some merit to the "because they are children" reason. The president's speech would have been heard on the radio, likely with the children's parents present. If anyone listening wanted to turn off the radio they could. At school events, it is asking a lot for parents to remove their children, and if it is a classroom setting there is probably little choice in the matter.

It is also very difficult to compare presidential actions to those of pretty much anyone else. Unlike a teacher, he is in the role of president all the time. He can't really express any views in a capacity other than as president. Also, presidents can get away with a lot. The courts can't really do much of anything to the president if there is not the political will to challenge a president by political means (elections; impeachment).

 

[chadm]

There is nothing wrong with a government official expressing religious beliefs. One difference is in the forum. If a school teacher wanted to set up a soap box in the park and preach, or pay for TV access to do so, that would be their right. However, if they want to make it part of a school sponsored event, that won't fly. There are a few basic reasons for this:
1. The forum is financed by the state.
2. What is said at the forum can be seen as endorsed by the state.
3. There is a captive audience that did not come there for the purpose of religion.

There is also at least some merit to the "because they are children" reason. The president's speech would have been heard on the radio, likely with the children's parents present. If anyone listening wanted to turn off the radio they could. At school events, it is asking a lot for parents to remove their children, and if it is a classroom setting there is probably little choice in the matter.

It is also very difficult to compare presidential actions to those of pretty much anyone else. Unlike a teacher, he is in the role of president all the time. He can't really express any views in a capacity other than as president. Also, presidents can get away with a lot. The courts can't really do much of anything to the president if there is not the political will to challenge a president by political means (elections; impeachment).

I agree with point 3. The first two could also be seen the same way by the Presidents prayer.
What is your opinion on the school stopping the student from saying a prayer during the valedictorian speech. Is this the students right to free speech?

 

[Cyclonepride]

I also think it should be pointed out that "a football team at a state university who hires a champlain" is the same as that state university hiring a champlain.

And what exactly is wrong with that?

How does the fourteenth amendment apply here?

Does hiring a chaplain abridge the priveledges of citizens?

Does it deprive anyone of life, liberty or property?

Does it deny equal protection under the law?

 

[Kyle]

I agree with point 3. The first two could also be seen the same way by the Presidents prayer.
What is your opinion on the school stopping the student from saying a prayer during the valedictorian speech. Is this the students right to free speech?

I do love my free speech rights. I'd probably fall on that side of the line here.

 

[Kyle]

And what exactly is wrong with that?

How does the fourteenth amendment apply here?

Does hiring a chaplain abridge the priveledges of citizens?

Does it deprive anyone of life, liberty or property?

Does it deny equal protection under the law?

Prior to the civil war amendments (13, 14, & 15) nothing in the constitution restrained state action in any way. It strictly related to the federal government. Since then though, most of the protections of the first 10 amendments have been "incorporated" against the states using the due process clause of the 14th amendment. So technically, almost any time a state action is deemed unconstitutional it is pursuant to that clause. Pragmatically though, it makes sense to just discuss a specific amendment, such as the 1st, because the courts apply the same standards to states in most cases.

 

[cyputz]

It is there right to petition. However, loopholes allow Football to do as they please when this position is funded by private fundraisers. If we had to bend over and kiss our arse everytime a petition is presented, we probably would not have computers yet.

 

[dsouth]

A nation founded on the principal of religious freedom.... unless of course you want to express that religious freedom. The seperation of church and state has to do with state "sponsored" religion. (by definition that would include atheism) that is far different that chaplin on the payroll of a football team. Doesn't every university in the country have a chapel?

 

[dsouth]

All that does is show that FDR was a christian. We haven't had a non-christian president yet. What's your point? It's not like he said that "God told him" to start a war...

or that mother earth told him it was wrong.

 

[Kyle]

A nation founded on the principal of religious freedom.... unless of course you want to express that religious freedom. The seperation of church and state has to do with a state "sponsored" that is far different that chaplin on the payroll of a football team. Doesn't every university in the country have a chapel?

I would contend that a religious position is state sponsored if it is on the state's payroll. I get the feeling that most state universities do not have a chaplain actually. If most did I think I would have come across a case about it, but I didn't. I think a lot of people are working on the assumption that this is done at a lot of other schools.

If anyone has concrete information regarding chaplains at other state funded universities please share.