Where did anyone take us (football)?

[darts180]

I said in another thread or maybe somewhere earlier in this thread that the '98 Iowa game saved McCarney's job...you do realize though that in all of these games you are naming off that we should have won...McCarney recruited the guys that did it, and the importance of recruiting is MONUMENTAL in order for a turnaround to take place...if we would've had a different coach with the player's Dan brought in...I'll agree with you that we would've done bigger and better things...but the problem is, that coach would've had to start from where Dan started with Walden's players (meaning no Seneca, no Sage)...that is why I disagree with you...you are going against the past 100 years of history and just assuming the other coach would have brought in top talent despite have crappy facilities to start with and no school tradition, and took us to three consecutive north titles, and three straight bowl games (insight.com at worst)...I would have loved it if that would've happened, but the last 100 years suggest that those are some VERY lofty expectations.

For some reason (blind loyalty???) you don't comprehend what I am saying. I will try this again.

First, apparently you didn't read the whole statement. I wrote that assuming a good coach was given what he was given to work with, resources wise, I will say this again, given what he was given to work with resources wise(you got it now right???), the level of recruiting would not have been altered much, if any. Dan never brought in a class that rated in the top five in the conference, consistently it was 10-12. I am pretty sure that the level of recruiting that was done would have been pretty equal to what Dan did, JUST NOT THE SAME NAMES.

Then, if a coach started to win, then the recruiting improves.
Plus in the 100 years of tradition, rarely have we played in a league as weak as the Big 12 North has been the last 4 years.


I still don't get why the McCarney people, and people who believed in the sorry job he was doing, and had enough, why are you so afraid of winning????

 

[Clone_12]

The level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much???? Are you a huge believer in recruiting rankings? Do you honestly believe our recruiting classes were 10th-12th in the conference every year? If that was the case, then McCarney would have been a great gameday coach, because we wouldn't have had the talent to compete with half the teams we were playing not to lose against. Tom Lemming called McCarney one of the best evaluators of talent in the country...But yet the level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much, lol. I think he knows a little more about football than me, and even you darts.

 

[Bobber]

Jeff,

Dan did not have more resources to work with then the fellows before him when he first came to town. As I recall he was still working with astro turf, no indoor practice facilility, no lights for night games, no Jacobson complex, and very few good players left from Jim Walden(other then Troy Davis). All those things came after Dan McCarney came to town and it was in no small part due to his lobbying for those improvements.

Okay a valid question is why didn't he do better after getting all those improvements, but that's a different issue. :skeptical:

 

[darts180]

The level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much???? Are you a huge believer in recruiting rankings? Do you honestly believe our recruiting classes were 10th-12th in the conference every year? If that was the case, then McCarney would have been a great gameday coach, because we wouldn't have had the talent to compete with half the teams we were playing not to lose against. Tom Lemming called McCarney one of the best evaluators of talent in the country...But yet the level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much, lol. I think he knows a little more about football than me, and even you darts.

OK, fascinating statement. Lemming, whom Dan the man used, and paid, and endorsed said he was a talent evaluator. Hmmmmm.......He was also on the radio saying that we should be happy with where we are at. And that there is no way we can compete with the good teams in our league. How come you didn't use those statements from Mr Lemming as well???

Honestly, you're telling me that NO other coach in the country could have come in here and recruited on par with what McCarney did???? I even talking about unknowns, as Dan the man was when he was hired, not anyone established. That may be the most unbelievable statement that I have read from you.

 

[darts180]

Jeff,

Dan did not have more resources to work with then the fellows before him when he first came to town. As I recall he was still working with astro turf, no indoor practice facilility, no lights for night games, no Jacobson complex, and very few good players left from Jim Walden(other then Troy Davis). All those things came after Dan McCarney came to town and it was in no small part due to his lobbying for those improvements.

Okay a valid question is why didn't he do better after getting all those improvements, but that's a different issue. :skeptical:

Bob, plans for the turf, and weight/lockerroom were in place, except for the IPF. from Gene Smith. They broke ground on Jacobson in 95 or 96, please someone correct that timeframe. If you remember, it was one of the selling points, all of the upgrades.

The indoor practice facility was paid for by 2000. Once again proving that Iowa State fans will support their program, financially, if you give them a reason to be excited. It continued through 01, and then the collapse of 02, and the disgrace that 03 was, it dried up.

That's why a coach, who could have won with the big lead against K State, beat a bad CU team, and won at KU with a lead in the 4th quarter (all games that we should have won THAT year, forget the previous years). That's a bowl game, Bob, and it had nothing to do with the size of our budget, it was strictly scared coaching. Then you win 8-9 in 2000, 8 in 01 (and this is with only ONE "upset" the other games were completely winnable, and should have been won), think where the donations would have been by 02 then. Talk about a wasted opportunity.:no:

 

[Steve]

The level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much???? Are you a huge believer in recruiting rankings? Do you honestly believe our recruiting classes were 10th-12th in the conference every year? If that was the case, then McCarney would have been a great gameday coach, because we wouldn't have had the talent to compete with half the teams we were playing not to lose against. Tom Lemming called McCarney one of the best evaluators of talent in the country...But yet the level of recruiting wouldn't have been altered much, lol. I think he knows a little more about football than me, and even you darts.

Is there another Tom Lemming out there? One who might actually have actually worked for a living as a coach or recruiting coordinator. If so, I might be inclined to put some faith into what he sells to the unsuspecting public. I don't give much credibility to the guy who somehow turned a career of being a mailman who read about Norte Dame recruits into selling himself as a recruiting guru.

I liked and supported Mac, but am convinced that his shortcomings can be tied directly to not being able to attract enough top level talent. The list that I linked to earlier in this thread solidly support this conclusion. Mac probably recruited about 300 guys over his 12 year tenure. By default simply to put a team on the field, one can assume that somewhere between 100-150 of these guys became starters. If every starter averaged 2 years starting, the number would be 12 yrs / 2 X 22 = 132. One problem is that many of these guys would struggle to make the 2 deeps of the teams who played in the conference championship.

Mac's primary problem with recruiting was the 150-200 guys he signed who never contributed much of anything to the program. Once again, too many busts due to academics, injuries, character, or simply lack of skills. This robbed his program of much needed depth. When things fell into place, he could piece together parts of 4 or 5 recruiting classes to field a competitive team (ie 2000). Whenever key people left or the inevitable bad breaks occurred, recruiting wasn't strong enough to make the next man in approach pan out.

 

[Clone_12]

Darts...where in the world did I say that "no other coach in the country" could have came in and done it??? It must be nice just to flat out make up things to make your argument better, with absolutely nothing to back it up...find me where I said absolutely no other coach in the COUNTRY could do it...please...it pretty funny that I didn't even say "the most unbelievable statement" you've ever heard from me...you continue to just sink lower and lower in your argument. And btw...I'll still take Tom Lemming's word (who gets paid just to evaluate recruiting classes for college football) over yours, even though you are obviously just as well respected and known for your knowledge of college football and recruiting. A lot of neutral people around the country think that ISU football can't go higher than it was over the last seven years, because it NEVER HAS, at least on a consistant basis like five out of seven years...I hope we prove them wrong to, but only time will tell on that. Oh btw...tell Lane Danielsen, Jack Whitver, Jordan Carstens, Tim Dobbins, Sage Rosenfels, and Seneca Wallace that Lemming was wrong on McCarney being a great judge of talent.

 

[Clone_12]

As for as the guy's downfall here, it was on gamedays, not recruiting...darts claims that the only reason he ever won here was because other schools got worse...they did get worse, but the fact is Dan outrecruited the likes of Nebraska, Texas A@M, and Colorado, over a small stretch of time...to say the recruiting would have stayed the same with any coach that would've been here is absolutely rediculous and just shows your serious distain for the guy...do you realize the differences in recruiting for Texas, Texas A@M, Nebraska, Colorado, and Oklahoma compared to ISU??? It's NIGHT AND DAY!...unless you don't think facilities, tradition, prestigue, national exposure, and having more talent in your backyard are important. And we outrecruited three of those schools for at least a stretch towards the end of McCarney's run...if you say we didn't outrecruit them, then please explain to me how we beat them on the field, because it sure as heck wasn't good gameday coaching...bottom line, to say Dan did less with more than anyone before him is flatout rediculous, and just shows you have too much of a grudge against the guy to be rational when it comes to talking about him...

 

[ICCYFAN]

Oh btw...tell Lane Danielsen, Jack Whitver, Jordan Carstens, Tim Dobbins, Sage Rosenfels, and Seneca Wallace that Lemming was wrong on McCarney being a great judge of talent.

Weren't Danielson, Whitver and Carstens all walk-ons?

 

[Clone_12]

Yeah, they were walk-ons...not sure if they were preferred walk-ons or not...I think Lane was, not sure on Jordan or Whitver...my point was none of those guys were highly recruited at all, and all went on to be all big 12 caliber players...anyways, I'm done posting on this thread unless I get any more personal attacks or misquoted again...I apologize to the people that have had to read this argument...the bottom line is, all of us want the same thing-success for the Clones, and here's to hoping we get it...plenty to be excited about now with Chizik and McDermott.

 

[jdoggivjc]

There is no way Carstens was a preferred walk-on - he was a 190-lb freshman when he walked on. He got to where he was through hard work and determination.

As far as recruiting goes, don't forget it seems that as soon as a quality prospect signs with ISU their "star rating" drops. We've all commented on how that happens, and is an explanation as to why our recruiting classes were at the bottom - experts believing that if a top notch recruit signs with ISU that they must not be as good as they expected. Like someone said above, teams with poor talent don't overcome coaching mistakes and win as much as we have. I'm still of the opinion that the talent on last year's team wasn't all that bad - actually, it was a fairly talented team that never focused on fundamentals, was poorly schemed, ran the wrong plays at the wrong times, and midway through the year was emotionally dead.

 

[ICCYFAN]

Yeah, they were walk-ons...not sure if they were preferred walk-ons or not...I think Lane was, not sure on Jordan or Whitver...my point was none of those guys were highly recruited at all, and all went on to be all big 12 caliber players...

No problem - I just thought it was funny you were citing three (possibly four - was Rosenfels offered a scholly out of Macquoketa?) walk-ons as evidence of DMac's recruiting prowess.

Mac didn't initially recognize their potential any more than the other D1 coaches who passed on them; ISU was lucky they grew up in close proximity to Ames! Of one thing I'm certain, Lemming wasn't heaping praise on McCarney for bringing any of those four to Ames!

 

[darts180]

Darts...where in the world did I say that "no other coach in the country" could have came in and done it??? It must be nice just to flat out make up things to make your argument better, with absolutely nothing to back it up...find me where I said absolutely no other coach in the COUNTRY could do it...please...it pretty funny that I didn't even say "the most unbelievable statement" you've ever heard from me...you continue to just sink lower and lower in your argument. And btw...I'll still take Tom Lemming's word (who gets paid just to evaluate recruiting classes for college football) over yours, even though you are obviously just as well respected and known for your knowledge of college football and recruiting. A lot of neutral people around the country think that ISU football can't go higher than it was over the last seven years, because it NEVER HAS, at least on a consistant basis like five out of seven years...I hope we prove them wrong to, but only time will tell on that. Oh btw...tell Lane Danielsen, Jack Whitver, Jordan Carstens, Tim Dobbins, Sage Rosenfels, and Seneca Wallace that Lemming was wrong on McCarney being a great judge of talent.[/quote


He hit on some guys in his 12 year, good job Dan.

So, then Dan was the only guy that could do what he did in your eyes???

You qualify everything, then make sweeping statements, I am not sure how to argue with you because you try to play both sides of the fence.

What I said was that, given the resources that Dan was given, the recruiting wouldn't have been that much different. That there are many, many kids that could have come here and did what many of your examples did on the field.

The point, that you seem to avoid, is what a good coach could have meant in 99, 00, 01, etc. and what that could have meant for today. It was the missed opportunity, I hope that it's not the last opportunity for Iowa State football.

Because, kNU is becoming a power again, KSU will get better, CU has a good coach, and they will get better, MU is becoming consistently average as well. If we missed the opportunity to get into that mix, if the window closes on Iowa State, then there is even more reason to be upset with the underperformance that we have seen over the past 8-9 years.

 

[Steve]

The comments about some of Mac's best players being walk-ons confirm that coaches make mistakes in evaluating talent. In all of these cases, many of the 25 guys who were given scholarships ahead of the walk-ons didn't pan out.

Carstens ended up being a last second preferred walk-on. These are guys who could be included in the 104 ( # may have changed) players who can report at the start of August practice. Extra guys above that number have to wait until classes start. ISU had one spot reopen when one of the original 104 had a change of plans. Someone from Mac's staff heard how Carstens outworked everybody in the summer Shrine game camp so the decision was made to give Jordan a chance. I'm not 100% sure, but it may have been Mike Woodley who had a connection with his own kid on the team.

To put the final nail in the Tom Lemming coffin, it was Bob Carskie (Mac's own recruiting coordinator) who told a group that I was with about Lemming's mailman background. He thought that it was funny how some of the public see him as an expert while coaches totally ignore him.

I would also like to make a distinction between effort and success when it comes to recruiting. Carskie once said that he had never been around anyone who worked as hard as Mac did on recruiting. A lazy recruiter would be someone who waited until Osborne & Fry offered and then go after the leftovers (sorry Walden). At least Mac wasn't afraid to go head-to-head with guys. His problem was that he didn't win enough battles. He lost more than he won even against schools like Baylor and KU with Terry Allen. Almost every year he had to fill out his classes in January with plan B guys.

Keep in mind that football more than anything is a numbers game. One superstar won't guarentee a win just as one bum won't guarentee a loss. Every team has guys who can play as well as guys who are weaker links. Walden always complained about numbers because he knew that he needed 85 guys to pick from to get 30 who were ready in their career to go to battle on a given Saturday. Even he admitted that often he was down to 15-20 guys that he had confidence in. In all honesty, Mac was probably at 20-25. A few positions had some depth (WR) while some guys started who didn't belong on the field (OL). This works sometimes against teams in the same boat like KU or Baylor. It doesn't work against teams like TX or OU who show up with 40 guys ready to play D1 football.

 

[ISUFan22]

Good grief people. Isn't it clear, no matter what is said - no one is going to change their mind?

 

[darts180]

There is no way Carstens was a preferred walk-on - he was a 190-lb freshman when he walked on. He got to where he was through hard work and determination.

As far as recruiting goes, don't forget it seems that as soon as a quality prospect signs with ISU their "star rating" drops. We've all commented on how that happens, and is an explanation as to why our recruiting classes were at the bottom - experts believing that if a top notch recruit signs with ISU that they must not be as good as they expected. Like someone said above, teams with poor talent don't overcome coaching mistakes and win as much as we have. I'm still of the opinion that the talent on last year's team wasn't all that bad - actually, it was a fairly talented team that never focused on fundamentals, was poorly schemed, ran the wrong plays at the wrong times, and midway through the year was emotionally dead.

I do think that Mac upgraded the talent to a point. As Steve said any given year in the past 7, we had 15-25 guys who could go out and play Big 12 football. With Walden it was 10-20 (however, he did recruit fairly well his first three years here, you can mark the end in fact, it was the whole lack of institutional support in the whole Steve Lester affair), but had the same problem, no depth.

I just think that a coach, and staff, that paid attention to every detail, stressed fundementals, and had the ability to make adjustments could have won some of those program making wins that could have occurred along the way. Win those game would have made recruiting sooo much easier.

 

[CyCloned]

can someone kill: who ever took ISU anywhere thread?

I am getting sick of looking at it. Mac is gone, GC is now the coach. Will he lead the Clones to greatness? I have no idea, and neither does anyone else. The bottom line was Mac and his coaching staff were not getting it done, and JP saw that.

The fact that ISU has never been great is no reason to stop trying to be. Sure it won't be easy. If is was easy, college coaches would be make $45,000 a year instead of $1M +.