Yogi Bera

[BenEClone]

said it best, "Deja Vu all over again." A few years back we walked into Devaney and saw our pg hobbled (was it Medders?). When Aus wasn't warming up it all rushed back and the outcome was similar. The live fire auditions for point guard sans Lacey had bright spots, but, no clear winner. They did do better than Wilkins. The press almost seems unsporting, but, Yori felt she "had to take advantage". And, again. The other deja vu was the unguarded pg having a career day. The same thing happened at Baylor a few years back. Just because a player doesn't score much, doesn't mean she can't, especially when given uncontested shots.

Bottom line, we were proud of the team and coaches - recall where most of us realistically thought we'd be this year rather than what they've given us reason to hope for. I really like this freshman class, especially Schroll going to the hoop. As the others get a little more poise, a quicker release, a little more assertiveness and even a little luck and we could have won that game, even under the circumstances.

 

[jaretac]

said it best, "Deja Vu all over again." A few years back we walked into Devaney and saw our pg hobbled (was it Medders?). When Aus wasn't warming up it all rushed back and the outcome was similar. The live fire auditions for point guard sans Lacey had bright spots, but, no clear winner. They did do better than Wilkins. The press almost seems unsporting, but, Yori felt she "had to take advantage". And, again. The other deja vu was the unguarded pg having a career day. The same thing happened at Baylor a few years back. Just because a player doesn't score much, doesn't mean she can't, especially when given uncontested shots.

Bottom line, we were proud of the team and coaches - recall where most of us realistically thought we'd be this year rather than what they've given us reason to hope for. I really like this freshman class, especially Schroll going to the hoop. As the others get a little more poise, a quicker release, a little more assertiveness and even a little luck and we could have won that game, even under the circumstances.

As worried as some of us have been about replacing Aus, I think we will be just fine. If we can plan that well against the #3 team without our best player, the future looks very bright for ISU. I really think that with Aus in the lineup, we would have won.

ps- it was medders

 

[Tre4ISU]

As worried as some of us have been about replacing Aus, I think we will be just fine. If we can plan that well against the #3 team without our best player, the future looks very bright for ISU. I really think that with Aus in the lineup, we would have won.

ps- it was medders

I firmly believe we are a Top 5-7 team with Aus.

 

[VeloClone]

The press almost seems unsporting, but, Yori felt she "had to take advantage".

I think that is what the game is all about - exploiting your opponent's weaknesses regardless of how they came to be. I have no problem with that, just like I had no problem with Tinsley abusing those guarding him or Fizer dunking on inferior players (like Mihm :biggrin.

Other teams do it to our men's team - packing it inside because we have lost a good deal of our outside shooting (that German guy who shall not be named & JVdB for example). That's just a good game plan. Even Bill does it by planning to take the other team's best player(s) out of their game and forcing a lesser player to make the shots and beat you.

 

[gizzsdad]

Yori felt she "had to take advantage".

Reminds me a little bit of a game about 10 years ago when I think we were playing NC State and Kay Yow was still coaching. We were pounding them into dust, and could have named the score, and they had not pressed the whole game - likely because they knew we would kill their press. I was sick at home listening to the game, and at about the 8:00 mark, leading by roughly 25, BF cleared the bench. Yow chose that moment to not only leave her starters in, but started to press and really ate into the lead big time. Rich Fellingham was saying that BF was staring down the sideline at the NCS bench, but Yow wouldn't look at him. Finally, with the lead almost down to single digits, BF had to back with the starters - and we did hang on.

My friends and I had some spirited discussion about whether Yow did the right/wrong thing, and whether she had a right to try to win the game. It is very sad that Yow died of cancer, but I lost all respect for her as a person, and I know that BF was major PO'd.

Anyone else remember this?

 

[Tre4ISU]

Reminds me a little bit of a game about 10 years ago when I think we were playing NC State and Kay Yow was still coaching. We were pounding them into dust, and could have named the score, and they had not pressed the whole game - likely because they knew we would kill their press. I was sick at home listening to the game, and at about the 8:00 mark, leading by roughly 25, BF cleared the bench. Yow chose that moment to not only leave her starters in, but started to press and really ate into the lead big time. Rich Fellingham was saying that BF was staring down the sideline at the NCS bench, but Yow wouldn't look at him. Finally, with the lead almost down to single digits, BF had to back with the starters - and we did hang on.

My friends and I had some spirited discussion about whether Yow did the right/wrong thing, and whether she had a right to try to win the game. It is very sad that Yow died of cancer, but I lost all respect for her as a person, and I know that BF was major PO'd.

Anyone else remember this?

No, but what's the problem? I also wouldn't have had a problem with BF hanging another 20 on the lead. This isn't junior high. Once you get to big time college sports, there is no running up the score. If you want them to stop then do something about it. Get better. Players should be pulled to avoid injury and things like that, not to let the other team feel better. Now, there is a certain way to play, obviously you wouldn't press and you would slow the game down but I hate it when D1 people complain about the score being run up or in this case someone trying to win the damn game. The whole point is to win and if that opportunity presents itself you have to take it.

 

[Tre4ISU]

I think that is what the game is all about - exploiting your opponent's weaknesses regardless of how they came to be. I have no problem with that, just like I had no problem with Tinsley abusing those guarding him or Fizer dunking on inferior players (like Mihm :biggrin.

Other teams do it to our men's team - packing it inside because we have lost a good deal of our outside shooting (that German guy who shall not be named & JVdB for example). That's just a good game plan. Even Bill does it by planning to take the other team's best player(s) out of their game and forcing a lesser player to make the shots and beat you.

I agree.

Does anyone remember the game a few years back when ISU played I think it was Morningside and almost, in fact probably should have lost? All I remember is that ISU was just dog tired and the only thing that seemed to bail them out was TV timeouts. I remember Tinsley being matched pretty evenly by a guy that was probably only about 5'4. That is why I bring this up.

 

[BoxsterCy]

Our gals played true to another Yogi quote "It ain't over till it's over." They played great defense and kept us in the game on the road against #3 without their best player and point guard. We are seeing some of that "refuse to lose" attitude with our team that was first shown at Texas.

I don't want to overstate how good they are because they are still pretty green but games like this in Big 12 play will really help come NCAA time. I love watching these gals.

 

[mred]

Reminds me a little bit of a game about 10 years ago when I think we were playing NC State and Kay Yow was still coaching.
....................
My friends and I had some spirited discussion about whether Yow did the right/wrong thing, and whether she had a right to try to win the game. It is very sad that Yow died of cancer, but I lost all respect for her as a person, and I know that BF was major PO'd.

Get that respect for Yow back, please.

It was North Carolina and Sylvia Hatchell, NOT NC State and Kay Yow.

ISU played the first string and UNC did not press. ISU played the second string and UNC did not press. When ISU called off the dogs and put in the third string with ISU way up, UNC started a full-court press with their starters (maybe 5 minutes left, ISU up 25-30). When Fennelly finally put the starters back in with a minute or so left, UNC suddenly stopped pressing again.

 

[mred]

Here's an old article on that game:

Digital Sports - Cyclones hold off Tar Heels 79-67 01/24/00

No. 8 Iowa State showed outstanding balance and was terrific on the boards in beating North Carolina 79-67 Sunday for its 10th straight victory.

But with Iowa State's reserves in the nationally televised game after the Cyclones had built a 30-point lead, North Carolina began pressing in an attempt to whittle the deficit.

An angry Fennelly sent his starters back in with 1:14 left to finish the game. Asked why, Fennelly paused nine seconds before answering.

"I put them back in because I didn't think it was appropriate to leave the reserves in with the kind of defense they were playing and the way the game had gotten out of hand," Fennelly said.

"I put those kids in the game because they deserved to play and they deserved to get on national television. If you want to press, you press my first team, not my third."

Fennelly said he was not mad at his reserves, who surrendered 16 straight North Carolina points in the final 3:06. Asked if he was mad at North Carolina, which had not pressed earlier, Fennelly replied, "Yes."

 

[MNCyGuy]

No, but what's the problem? I also wouldn't have had a problem with BF hanging another 20 on the lead. This isn't junior high. Once you get to big time college sports, there is no running up the score. If you want them to stop then do something about it. Get better. Players should be pulled to avoid injury and things like that, not to let the other team feel better. Now, there is a certain way to play, obviously you wouldn't press and you would slow the game down but I hate it when D1 people complain about the score being run up or in this case someone trying to win the damn game. The whole point is to win and if that opportunity presents itself you have to take it.

The problem was that she wasn't doing everything she could to win the game before the BF cleared the bench. He tried to be a sportsman and she saw it as a cheap way to pick up points.

 

[Tre4ISU]

The problem was that she wasn't doing everything she could to win the game before the BF cleared the bench. He tried to be a sportsman and she saw it as a cheap way to pick up points.

Which is why I stated I have no problem with not pulling starters. It is stupid because of injury risk, but as far as score I have no problem. It is not a teams job to stop themselves.

 

[MNCyGuy]

Which is why I stated I have no problem with not pulling starters. It is stupid because of injury risk, but as far as score I have no problem. It is not a teams job to stop themselves.

Right, but why was she not pressing when the starters were still in?

 

[Tre4ISU]

Right, but why was she not pressing when the starters were still in?

For the same reason anyone doesn't press teams. They fear they will be beaten worse by doing that than sitting back. When a different lineup is in it was in her best interest to press and try to make the game more respectable score wise. I just have a hard time faulting a coach for being aggressive when they are down 30.

 

[VeloClone]

Reminds me a little bit of a game about 10 years ago when I think we were playing NC State and Kay Yow was still coaching. We were pounding them into dust, and could have named the score, and they had not pressed the whole game - likely because they knew we would kill their press. I was sick at home listening to the game, and at about the 8:00 mark, leading by roughly 25, BF cleared the bench. Yow chose that moment to not only leave her starters in, but started to press and really ate into the lead big time. Rich Fellingham was saying that BF was staring down the sideline at the NCS bench, but Yow wouldn't look at him. Finally, with the lead almost down to single digits, BF had to back with the starters - and we did hang on.

My friends and I had some spirited discussion about whether Yow did the right/wrong thing, and whether she had a right to try to win the game. It is very sad that Yow died of cancer, but I lost all respect for her as a person, and I know that BF was major PO'd.

Anyone else remember this?

I remember this UNC game. I also seem to remember Bill saying something to the effect of "if you press us, you press our starters" after the game. The closest thing to a shot at another coach I've ever heard come out of his mouth. I think it was pretty bush league to slap the press on the third string when they are calling off the dogs out of respect. Bill probably should have put the starters back in right away and told them to stomp on the gas but he has too much class to do that.

I don't think these two situations are at all alike.

 

[VeloClone]

For the same reason anyone doesn't press teams. They fear they will be beaten worse by doing that than sitting back. When a different lineup is in it was in her best interest to press and try to make the game more respectable score wise. I just have a hard time faulting a coach for being aggressive when they are down 30.

What would you think of this situation?

A team is up by double digits and has the ball with a handful of seconds left. The other team makes it clear they are not trying to foul or play defense. They appear to just be standing between their players and the basket waiting for time to expire. The player with the ball aproaches the player "guarding" him or her and offers their hand. The other player uses the opportunity of their guard down to steal the ball and break for a lay-up or dunk as time expires.

To me what UNC did is the coaching equivalent of this. If you are going to try to do something entirely different to get back into a game with just a handful of minutes left when you are way out of the game, you do it before the other team calls off the dogs. Waiting until the third string is in is completely legal, but I'm sure any coach will tell you bush league. There are written rules and unwritten rules.

On a mostly unrelated note, did you notice OSU player with the ball take 4 steps without dribbling before the clock ran out last night? Refs usually give a little leaway and let time run out at the end of the game, but I was surprised they let that go. I know it didn't matter, I was just surprised.

 

[gizzsdad]

Get that respect for Yow back, please.

It was North Carolina and Sylvia Hatchell, NOT NC State and Kay Yow.

ISU played the first string and UNC did not press. ISU played the second string and UNC did not press. When ISU called off the dogs and put in the third string with ISU way up, UNC started a full-court press with their starters (maybe 5 minutes left, ISU up 25-30). When Fennelly finally put the starters back in with a minute or so left, UNC suddenly stopped pressing again.

Thanks for correcting me mred - I wasn't sure of my recollection. That game was played in Hilton wasn't it?

 

[Tre4ISU]

What would you think of this situation?

A team is up by double digits and has the ball with a handful of seconds left. The other team makes it clear they are not trying to foul or play defense. They appear to just be standing between their players and the basket waiting for time to expire. The player with the ball aproaches the player "guarding" him or her and offers their hand. The other player uses the opportunity of their guard down to steal the ball and break for a lay-up or dunk as time expires.

To me what UNC did is the coaching equivalent of this. If you are going to try to do something entirely different to get back into a game with just a handful of minutes left when you are way out of the game, you do it before the other team calls off the dogs. Waiting until the third string is in is completely legal, but I'm sure any coach will tell you bush league. There are written rules and unwritten rules.

On a mostly unrelated note, did you notice OSU player with the ball take 4 steps without dribbling before the clock ran out last night? Refs usually give a little leaway and let time run out at the end of the game, but I was surprised they let that go. I know it didn't matter, I was just surprised.

I wouldn't say those are similar. At least they aren't to me. Obviously UNC had the opportunity to still make it somewhat a game. In your scenario they did not the game was basically over. Someone said there was 8 minutes left earlier. That is a ton of time IMO. I would also say that as soon as they started pressing, if I had a problem I would throw the starters right back in and throw another 10 on them. It would be fine with me if you press on my third string, however I'm not going to quit after I started giving your team the opportunity to practice against someone of your skill level.

I want to be clear. I am pretty old school when it comes to this stuff and I really don't believe in the sympathy stuff in sports so people don't feel bad, especially after HS. Before that, yes, because there are all kinds of talent levels that no one can really control so you should show some compassion. However when we are talking about recruiting and things that involve a lot of money it is different to me. I come from a HS bball team that was dominated on many occasions and I never blamed anyone for running it up. I wouldn't run the score up as a coach but I certainly would compete to the end. If I would have been BF, I wouldn't have gotten mad I would have just said "OK, well if you want to do that I am not letting you get back in this thing so here's my starters."

 

[VeloClone]

I wouldn't say those are similar. At least they aren't to me. Obviously UNC had the opportunity to still make it somewhat a game. In your scenario they did not the game was basically over. Someone said there was 8 minutes left earlier. That is a ton of time IMO. I would also say that as soon as they started pressing, if I had a problem I would throw the starters right back in and throw another 10 on them. It would be fine with me if you press on my third string, however I'm not going to quit after I started giving your team the opportunity to practice against someone of your skill level.

I want to be clear. I am pretty old school when it comes to this stuff and I really don't believe in the sympathy stuff in sports so people don't feel bad, especially after HS. Before that, yes, because there are all kinds of talent levels that no one can really control so you should show some compassion. However when we are talking about recruiting and things that involve a lot of money it is different to me. I come from a HS bball team that was dominated on many occasions and I never blamed anyone for running it up. I wouldn't run the score up as a coach but I certainly would compete to the end. If I would have been BF, I wouldn't have gotten mad I would have just said "OK, well if you want to do that I am not letting you get back in this thing so here's my starters."

Fair enough.

However, I don't believe there were eight minutes remaining.

"An angry Fennelly sent his starters back in with 1:14 left to finish the game."

"Fennelly said he was not mad at his reserves, who surrendered 16 straight North Carolina points in the final 3:06."

Depending on how you interpret this it was in the last 4:20 or 3:06 that they cranked up the press against the reserves; not eight minutes.

I agree that the way to deal with it is to put the starters back in and put your boot on their throat. He shouldn't have to. I think that when he put the starters back in he still had them hold the ball until the end of the shot clock and not take a shot at the end but let the game clock expire when they could. He showed class even when he was ****** off. I was screaming for them to rain threes on the Tarheels again.

The UNC coach even admitted that the reason she didn't press earlier is that she thought ISU handled the ball too well for that. She waited until she could do it when they called the dogs off. Right or not, it lacks class.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :smile:

 

[Tre4ISU]

Fair enough.

However, I don't believe there were eight minutes remaining.

"An angry Fennelly sent his starters back in with 1:14 left to finish the game."

"Fennelly said he was not mad at his reserves, who surrendered 16 straight North Carolina points in the final 3:06."

Depending on how you interpret this it was in the last 4:20 or 3:06 that they cranked up the press against the reserves; not eight minutes.

I agree that the way to deal with it is to put the starters back in and put your boot on their throat. He shouldn't have to. I think that when he put the starters back in he still had them hold the ball until the end of the shot clock and not take a shot at the end but let the game clock expire when they could. He showed class even when he was ****** off. I was screaming for them to rain threes on the Tarheels again.

The UNC coach even admitted that the reason she didn't press earlier is that she thought ISU handled the ball too well for that. She waited until she could do it when they called the dogs off. Right or not, it lacks class.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :smile:

Yeah, this would never end. I wouldn't say it lacks class as much as it does intelligence. You are putting your players in a position to get crushed again if he throws the starters back in. Like I said I have no problem running up the score or taking advantage of the third string, you just better remember you may have to play them again and they will not forget.

That is how I felt with Pete Carroll earlier this year when Harbaugh stomped on him in a big way. Pete had done that forever and now they became a good teams whipping boy and teams gave it to them and it was awesome that he was ******. I don't have a problem with not running it up or running it up, whichever, I just think you have to know the same thing can happen to you.