***OFFICIAL FIRE MESSINGHAM THREAD***

[im4cyclones]

The wind was so bad that night we couldn't put our tent up to tailgate. And Geno threw a lot short that his receivers turned into big plays. But his receivers had the speed to get separation and then get yards after the catch.

Was SR forcing it? Probably. Did he miss some open looks? I would guess so. But I don't think it is fair to pass judgement when the conditions were crap.

 

[Cincyclone]

I think people had too high of expectations for Richardson. The guy is a RS freshman, give him time and dont expect him to be freaking Peyton Manning.

 

[im4cyclones]

Plus Geno had the threat of a running game to keep us honest. The same cant be said for us.

 

[Wesley]

Plus Geno had the threat of a running game to keep us honest. The same cant be said for us.

What do you mean about the RBs? We have a stable of RBs ready to run. The five backs had at least six breakaway runs this year.

 

[Cincyclone]

What do you mean about the RBs? We have a stable of RBs ready to run. The five backs had at least six breakaway runs this year.

The lack of a running game falls on the offensive line. No one doubts that we have a good stable of running backs, but the offensive line can't open any holes for them. It's pathetic.

 

[boone7247]

The lack of a running game falls on the offensive line. No one doubts that we have a good stable of running backs, but the offensive line can't open any holes for them. It's pathetic.

What about the fact it takes 2 to 3 seconds for any running back to start making their way to the line of scrimmage. Our read plays take forever to develop, that is to me is on the OC not the line or the back.

 

[megamanxzero35]

Plus Geno had the threat of a running game to keep us honest. The same cant be said for us.

Are you talking about the ISUvWVU game?

 

[Cyclophile1]

What about the fact it takes 2 to 3 seconds for any running back to start making their way to the line of scrimmage. Our read plays take forever to develop, that is to me is on the OC not the line or the back.

That varies quite a lot by QB and whether it's inside or outside zone really. Outside zone just takes longer to develop and it seemed like Messingham thought our guys do better with a higher ratio of outside zone to inside zone. Younger and less experienced QBs will often have a tougher time making that key read and so I think that's one reason why I think we have the perception that Barnett runs it better than Jantz (which is accurate in my view). The problem is that you are going to have problems if you cannot execute the inside zone - most everything you are going to do is predicated off this building block setup, and we struggled quite a lot with it. Of all the spread concepts, inside zone is the most basic, straight up technique in the package - it's really just an old-fashioned veer dive option which allows the RB to freelance on what gap opens and run to it, or QB keep based on optioning the backside DE. We seemed to have a problem all year just getting hat on hat blocks to make this work well. While we weren't great at inside zone (despite White being pretty good a jamming the playside quickly), I do think we were better at outside zone but we were wildly inconsistent at it. Frustrating to watch honestly.

Cheers

 

[boone7247]

Are you talking about the ISUvWVU game?

If im4 is, then he must not realize we out rushed WVU in that game.

 

[swarthmoreCY]

The lack of a running game falls on the offensive line. No one doubts that we have a good stable of running backs, but the offensive line can't open any holes for them. It's pathetic.

Your disappointment in the lack of running game falls as much on this scheme as the OL. The average YPC sans Jantz is not bad. The scheme is horrible at utilizing the OL. JB is the only one that consistently executes the read correctly.

What about the fact it takes 2 to 3 seconds for any running back to start making their way to the line of scrimmage. Our read plays take forever to develop, that is to me is on the OC not the line or the back.

Yep. If done correctly, the zone read can be effective. If not, it is susceptible to TFL- you have a run game based on a slow developing delayed hand-off out of the shotgun that takes carries away from your RBs, and often has a defender intentionally left unblocked. On the inside, White was the only one to hit a hole, and he is does not break tackles in there. Combine that with our ability to stack the box with the passing game and poor play calling, and it would take a great OLine to have consistent success.

 

[boone7247]

That varies quite a lot by QB and whether it's inside or outside zone really. Outside zone just takes longer to develop and it seemed like Messingham thought our guys do better with a higher ratio of outside zone to inside zone. Younger and less experienced QBs will often have a tougher time making that key read and so I think that's one reason why I think we have the perception that Barnett runs it better than Jantz (which is accurate in my view). The problem is that you are going to have problems if you cannot execute the inside zone - most everything you are going to do is predicated off this building block setup, and we struggled quite a lot with it. Of all the spread concepts, inside zone is the most basic, straight up technique in the package - it's really just an old-fashioned veer dive option which allows the RB to freelance on what gap opens and run to it, or QB keep based on optioning the backside DE. We seemed to have a problem all year just getting hat on hat blocks to make this work well. While we weren't great at inside zone (despite White being pretty good a jamming the playside quickly), I do think we were better at outside zone but we were wildly inconsistent at it. Frustrating to watch honestly.

Cheers

I think part of the problem with the zone is merely we are taking to long to read it. I don't know when I see other teams run it the read is fairly quick. Either the DE crashes or he doesn't. This read taking a split second longer is the difference in there being a hole and there not.

I watched the majority of the Northwestern game yesterday. I don't think their athletes are much better than ours but their zone read takes that split second less than ours and gives their QB and backs an ability to make plays.

To me this is coaching. I would rather the QB make a quick decision wrong decision than to hesitate and not give us any opportunity. With time he would start making the right decision.

In away all year to me it seems our QBs are afraid to make a mistake, which isn't a good enviroment for them to be in. Yes mistakes are bad, but just as important is that they made a decision. They are young and inexperience we have to live with them making bad throws, wrong reads. But it seems like they are scared to make the decision and that is much worse. Makes me wonder if Mess is complete ******* on the practice field.

 

[Cyclophile1]

I think part of the problem with the zone is merely we are taking to long to read it. I don't know when I see other teams run it the read is fairly quick. Either the DE crashes or he doesn't. This read taking a split second longer is the difference in there being a hole and there not.

I watched the majority of the Northwestern game yesterday. I don't think their athletes are much better than ours but their zone read takes that split second less than ours and gives their QB and backs an ability to make plays.

To me this is coaching. I would rather the QB make a quick decision wrong decision than to hesitate and not give us any opportunity. With time he would start making the right decision.

In away all year to me it seems our QBs are afraid to make a mistake, which isn't a good enviroment for them to be in. Yes mistakes are bad, but just as important is that they made a decision. They are young and inexperience we have to live with them making bad throws, wrong reads. But it seems like they are scared to make the decision and that is much worse. Makes me wonder if Mess is complete ******* on the practice field.

Oh no question about it that Barnett makes the read a beat faster and consequentially, it runs better with him. I think Sam does pretty well with it for a redshirt freshman. Jantz was just freaking horrible at it and seemed to be just flipping a dadgum coin on his reads. It does make a real difference in how the plays work certainly, but I would argue that our OL struggled mightily developing blocks doing IZR so much that the defenses didn't really need to respect us at all. That kills all your play-action pass package, let's you bring an extra guy in the box without much fear, blows up all your Y-action plays. It's just bad, bad, bad.

Calls into question the QB coaching to a degree, but the OL coaching and development even more so. You just aren't going to be successful in this kind of spread without being able to do something as basic as IZR.

I like what I have seen some Richardson, so I'm hopeful. He's a good thrower and I hope we don't screw up his head.

Cheers

 

[CascadeClone]

He's a hell of a position coach...just demote him.

Think I agree with this. Didn't he coach special teams when we actually had a good return game a year or two ago?

But can you demote a guy after promoting him? Awkward.

 

[erikbj]

Think I agree with this. Didn't he coach special teams when we actually had a good return game a year or two ago?

But can you demote a guy after promoting him? Awkward.

Better than being fired.....ask the previous isu oc's who were fired on how their careers are going

 

[Tre4ISU]

Think I agree with this. Didn't he coach special teams when we actually had a good return game a year or two ago?

But can you demote a guy after promoting him? Awkward.

I don't think so. Besides, you would have to get rid of someone anyway. Keeping him around probably wouldn't do much good.

 

[megamanxzero35]

I don't think so. Besides, you would have to get rid of someone anyway. Keeping him around probably wouldn't do much good.

I think the only possible demotion would be to WR coach and Sturdy to OC. Unless Bleil would get fired and slide Mess there and Rhoads makes an outside hire for OC.

 

[boone7247]

Oh no question about it that Barnett makes the read a beat faster and consequentially, it runs better with him. I think Sam does pretty well with it for a redshirt freshman. Jantz was just freaking horrible at it and seemed to be just flipping a dadgum coin on his reads. It does make a real difference in how the plays work certainly, but I would argue that our OL struggled mightily developing blocks doing IZR so much that the defenses didn't really need to respect us at all. That kills all your play-action pass package, let's you bring an extra guy in the box without much fear, blows up all your Y-action plays. It's just bad, bad, bad.

Calls into question the QB coaching to a degree, but the OL coaching and development even more so. You just aren't going to be successful in this kind of spread without being able to do something as basic as IZR.

I like what I have seen some Richardson, so I'm hopeful. He's a good thrower and I hope we don't screw up his head.

Cheers

Just so I am clear I don't have a problem with Richardson. I do have a problem with what appears to be no progress in our offense in 4 years, under a new scheme. I understand some of the guys up front are young/inexperienced, but to me that puts even more of a magnifying glass on the coaching staff. They have to do everything to get the guys prepared. Basically if we can't run what should be a staple of our offense, we are ****ed. And if we have redshirt guys unable to do it they aren't getting the proper coaching. I look at it like this, we have low to mid level D1 talent, currently. If they can't sustain a blocks on a staple of our offense that isn't their fault that is the coaching staff not preparing them propertly. If it was redshirt freshman, on the first game of the year, I wouldn't worry, but we had the same problems all year, and on the last game of the year we had horrible problems with it, against a non BCS opponent. Tulsa was a good team, but they weren't as good as we made them look.

 

[Boxerdaddy]

I just don't like the read as our main run game. We don't have the right qb to be running this style. Our qbs have been effective at runnning but you really need a cody green or Kline type of qb or even like Gino. Right now I just don't think our personnel fits the style we're trying to run. I worry everytime our qbs take off running that they will get injured. (or fumble) As mentioned by numerous others it just takes too long for our run game to develop. Too many 3 and outs and that kills a defense.

 

[boone7247]

Bump!

 

[ISUAgronomist]

Starting early this season. Good work on the bump