***OFFICIAL FIRE MESSINGHAM THREAD***

[Wesley]

I don't think the O line and QB's suck inherently, there is evidence to suggest they are pretty talented really. I think for some reason players are not being developed on the offensive side of the ball like they are defensively. Steele never got better while he was here. Why is that? Barnett regressed from last year. Why is that? Both these guys have obvious tools and skills and are good enough to be successful. Hell both of them proved it. I go back and forth which performance was the best QB performance at ISU in the last 10 years...Steele vs Iowa last year or Barnett vs OSU. Barnett is fast as hell and Steele has a lot of good qualites one would look for in a QB....yet neither of them are getting better. I feel terrible for both those guys right now.

I never understand the small and quick O line thing we are going to. Hicks, Reggie Stephens, and KO were not of that breed, they were just big maulers and they were awesome O linemen. Did anyone watch KO this year in the NFL, he was dominating guys. Now we got these small lineman that are getting pushed around.

And why the hell do we have all these good backs supposedly, and they never get the ball? All this zone read does is make our QB, who isn't our best running back, run the ball more, and take more hits. It was fine with me when we had AA that would just run over guys,but he always got beat up and eventually blew out his knee doing this crap. Why do we want Steele or SR running the ball that much? Would much rather just have a straight handoff to JW, SJ or JW and actually try to block for them. Where is Jarvis West and why is he not involved at all? I keep hearing how great Nealy is...how about a called handoff to him?

I loved how Tulsa played. Our defense stopped them 5 possessions in a row from the second quarter into the second half. Did they abandon the run when that happened? Hell no. They kept at it. If anyone stops ISU 5 times do we abandon the run....yup. One problem Mess has is he abandons the run easily, one or two possessions of tough sledding and he throws in the towl on the run game. You gotta stay with it and keep pounding, just like Tulsa did. Mess says he is committed to the run game, but I don't think he really is in reality.

I don't have the answers, I don't know what is wrong, I do know we aren't getting our best skill guys the ball enough and something is terribly wrong offensively.

Well, we do not have to watch SJ exit stage left or right and madly scrambling any more. This season was opportunity lost. No opponent scored more than 35 agaiunst us. Cm'n offense, DO SOMETHING.

 

[brett108]

Well, we do not have to watch SJ exit stage left or right and madly scrambling any more. This season was opportunity lost. No opponent scored more than 35 agaiunst us. Cm'n offense, DO SOMETHING.

The offense says "not likely".

 

[Wesley]

2008
Pts Scored 25.3 to Pts Allowed 35.8
Rushing 138 yards to 174 yards opponents
Passing 248 yards to 278 yards opponents
TDs 36 to 59 Opponents


2009
Pts Scored 20.5 to Pts Allowed 21.8
Rushing 165 yards to 180 yards opponents
Passing 184 yards to 250 yards opponents
TDs 33 to 36 Opponents


2010
Pts Scored 21.7 to Pts Allowed 28.8
Rushing 165 yards to 180 yards opponents
Passing 143 yards to 186 yards opponents
TDs 29 to 39 Opponents


2011
Pts Scored 22.7 to Pts Allowed 29.4
Rushing 174 yards to 193 yards opponents
Passing 212 yards to 234 yards opponents
TDs 37 to 40 Opponents


2012
Pts Scored 24.5 to Pts Allowed 23.9
Rushing 150 yards to 177 yards opponents
Passing 214 yards to 265 yards opponents
TDs 38 to 37 Opponents

 

[DistrictCyclone]

2008
Pts Scored 25.3 to Pts Allowed 35.8
Rushing 138 yards to 174 yards opponents
Passing 248 yards to 278 yards opponents
TDs 36 to 59 Opponents


2009
Pts Scored 20.5 to Pts Allowed 21.8
Rushing 165 yards to 180 yards opponents
Passing 184 yards to 250 yards opponents
TDs 33 to 36 Opponents


2010
Pts Scored 21.7 to Pts Allowed 28.8
Rushing 165 yards to 180 yards opponents
Passing 143 yards to 186 yards opponents
TDs 29 to 39 Opponents


2011
Pts Scored 22.7 to Pts Allowed 29.4
Rushing 174 yards to 193 yards opponents
Passing 212 yards to 234 yards opponents
TDs 37 to 40 Opponents


2012
Pts Scored 24.5 to Pts Allowed 23.9
Rushing 150 yards to 177 yards opponents
Passing 214 yards to 265 yards opponents
TDs 38 to 37 Opponents

Wesley needs input!

 

[megamanxzero35]

Interesting article about the WSU transition from Sturdy's offense to Mike Leach's Air Raid:

How is Mike Leach's offense different from Todd Sturdy's? - CougCenter

Read the whole article. That sounds like nothing Mess does. I'd be down with a switch.

 

[clonehenge]

Great find! We can talk about how everyone sucks, but this link really demonstrates the intricacies of O schemes and how much more goes into it. I have NOTHING to base it on, but it seems to me Mess calls plays off a sheet, whereas Sturdy is SO much more of a strategist and one play is used to set up another play. Sturdy seems to have evidence of an offensive philosophy...

Anyway - thanks for the link - great article.

Mess doesn't seem to be able to make in game adjustments or call the game "on the fly" very well...

To me, Sturdy has a much more impressive OC resume and this article only strengthens my belief...having a specific package for each team and running plays to set up future plays is what this offense needs...especially when you don't have superior talent...but that's just my opinion...

 

[marothisu]

I agree with getting him out. The playcalling has been really bad almost all year and a lot of times you just scratch your head at what they're thinking. Don't fire him, but yes demote him. Get a real offensive coordinator in there.

 

[Luth4Cy]

Read the whole article. That sounds like nothing Mess does. I'd be down with a switch.

It says Sturdy would have scripted the first 15 plays. That sounds a whole lot more like Mess than you seem to think, considering throughout the season our offense seems to be best at the beginning of a game when scripted plays are being run.

I personally am not a fan of the Sturdy system however. I like the Leach system where receivers only have to learn one position. In some ways I think Leach's system is similar to that Tom Moore ran with Peyton Manning in Indianapolis. Leach's system takes the zone read and run pass option out of the offense however.

In the end I am supportive of whatever Rhoads chooses however. It does seem based on Sturdy's previous success and experience like he may be a better choice than Mess. I could certainly see them being Co-Offensive Coordinators next season with Sturdy calling the plays.

 

[TXCyclones]

I just got home and watched the game on DVR. This wasn't really an O-line issue and the line did a pretty good job early. Our schemes were bad, and the QB play was really bad, and the balls that hit the receivers were dropped. If we had any offense at all we could have been in this game right to the end. Steele was his typical turnover machine. But we didn't have plays set up to take advantage of Tulsa's injuries or adjustments! The opportunities were there and we didn't have the plays. I can see how the D would get frustrated, but they did a pretty good job considering how long they were on the field, and Lange's stupid penalty gave them 7 they no way would have gotten.

I wasn't a fan of Mess moving into that position, and I think this game shows he needs much more mentoring!

 

[Luth4Cy]

Mess doesn't seem to be able to make in game adjustments or call the game "on the fly" very well...

To me, Sturdy has a much more impressive OC resume and this article only strengthens my belief...having a specific package for each team and running plays to set up future plays is what this offense needs...especially when you don't have superior talent...but that's just my opinion...

I may be wrong but I think our offense does this to some extent already. I thought I recalled Mess saying once that his playbook for each game would be more simple than Herman's because he was going to have a specific package for each team.

I also think that the solution to Mess struggling to make in game adjustments doesn't lie within having more scripted plays or a specific package but rather having none if any scripted plays. Ideally, that would force the players and the coaching staff to be able to adjust on the fly more often. It also could backfire and cause the offense to lose the little bit of success that they have had.

 

[isufbcurt]

I read the article, what Sturdy did at WSU is what a majority of OC's do including both Herman and Mess. Personally I would prefer a little of how they do it and how Leach does it. If it was me I would ****** the first 8 - 10 plays, have specific route packages for opponents (like Sturdy, Mess, etc.) but also give the QBs more freedom to change plays (like Leach) and have a standardized blocking scheme (like Leach).

 

[Tre4ISU]

I read the article, what Sturdy did at WSU is what a majority of OC's do including both Herman and Mess. Personally I would prefer a little of how they do it and how Leach does it. If it was me I would ****** the first 8 - 10 plays, have specific route packages for opponents (like Sturdy, Mess, etc.) but also give the QBs more freedom to change plays (like Leach) and have a standardized blocking scheme (like Leach).

The thing about Leach's system is that it completely changes the defensive dynamic since there is little threat of the run (you already know this). I don't think you can just incorporate some of his offense and still run the ball.

Sturdy's offense would probably look something like Hermans which is still similar to Mess's. I don't think any of them are all that "simple" from a play number or formation standpoint. The playcalling on the other hand is pretty simple.

 

[Luth4Cy]

The thing about Leach's system is that it completely changes the defensive dynamic since there is little threat of the run (you already know this). I don't think you can just incorporate some of his offense and still run the ball.

Sturdy's offense would probably look something like Hermans which is still similar to Mess's. I don't think any of them are all that "simple" from a play number or formation standpoint. The playcalling on the other hand is pretty simple.

Does Leach run any of the run pass option stuff that we run some of and the article said Sturdy used at WSU? If I remember correctly Leach doesn't run any of it, but some of his brainchildren like Holgerson, Briles, and Kinsbury use run pass options.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Does Leach run any of the run pass option stuff that we run some of and the article said Sturdy used at WSU? If I remember correctly Leach doesn't run any of it, but some of his brainchildren like Holgerson, Briles, and Kinsbury use run pass options.

Leach is pretty straight up pass happy. Those other guys have been more innovative. They have also had two of the best dual threat QBs in the nation even if carry numbers don't show it. Leach has always recruited smart guys who throw it accurately. I suppose if he had a guy like Robert Griffin or Tavon Austin that would possibly change but I don't know if he has interest in getting those guys. IMO, Mike Leach takes an enormous amount of pride in doing the same things over and over without people stopping him. I think he has a huge ego and is stubborn in that regard. All that said, it has worked for him. He runs 4 verts way more than anyone can imagine. When and where the ball is thrown is the difference. I think Leach is a great offensive mind but I think he is going to get passed by if he doesn't adapt a little. I still think you have to be able to run the ball effectively in college because volatility of passing offense due to the changes in talent and such.

 

[SpokaneCY]

The thing about Leach's system is that it completely changes the defensive dynamic since there is little threat of the run (you already know this). I don't think you can just incorporate some of his offense and still run the ball.

Sturdy's offense would probably look something like Hermans which is still similar to Mess's. I don't think any of them are all that "simple" from a play number or formation standpoint. The playcalling on the other hand is pretty simple.

I'm just curious if Mess has the intellectual approach that Sturdy takes and even if Mess HAS an overall gameplan and playcalling methodology. Haven't heard much of his philosophy but doesn't mean its not our there an incorporated in his approach.

 

[atlantacyclone]

Now that I am calmed down and not standing on the ledge .... I still think that we need to make a change at OC. We had an amazing season considering how poorly our O looked at times. CPR has done amazing things. To get anywhere north of where we are now is going to have to include some O.

 

[CycoCyclone]

Count me in, need an OC change. Mess doesn't have to leave, but we need a bigger OC.

 

[SwirlingFloater]

Interesting article about the WSU transition from Sturdy's offense to Mike Leach's Air Raid:

How is Mike Leach's offense different from Todd Sturdy's? - CougCenter

I looked back at WSU scoring in Sturdy's last year (2011) when they ranked 9th in the country in pass offense. Scoring average was 29.8 PPG. Not sure he is the answer but I am like many of you... I am frustrated beyond belief and wanting some hope that we could see some significant improvement in our offense next season.

 

[Tre4ISU]

I'm just curious if Mess has the intellectual approach that Sturdy takes and even if Mess HAS an overall gameplan and playcalling methodology. Haven't heard much of his philosophy but doesn't mean its not our there an incorporated in his approach.

I think he has an intellectual gameplan but it seems like as soon as the defense adjusts, Mess starts playing darts with the play sheet.

 

[BKLYNCyclone]

The Tulsa game is on the O and D lines IMO. Same as Rutgers last year, and same as when we played Tulsa the first time this year. (Remember Woody Safety? That should never happen) Difference this time around was that Tulsa was in better shape at the end of the year. We wore them out in the first game and they wore us out this time.

My other concern is the real lack of energy the team seems to have in Bowl games. This is the second bowl in a row that I felt like we were just dominated up front, by teams that shouldn't have been able to compete.