***Official USMNT Thread***
- Thread starter ianoconnor
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the comment is pretty easy to understand.
in baseball aaron judge hits a lot of home runs. pretty easy to see. in basketball lebron dominates the game with his scoring everynight. pretty easy to see. in football randy moss got 100+ yards per game. pretty easy to see. the best soccer players score once (...maybe... twice) per game. i'm talking about the everyday fan who has no ability to see technical skill. they don't know a good tackle from a bad tackle or a good header from a bad header. so, without knowing these really technical things what do they look for? goals. and shouldn't the best players be scoring goals all the time? that's a rhetorical question but an honest one for the casual fan.
in int'l basketball... the USA vs the lowest teams is a blow out. in college football the best teams vs lowest teams is a blow out. bust in soccer... hard to see the difference most of the time.
If you don't know the game it is tough to see a difference in players and teams. When the US played Argentina a couple of years ago the final was like 4-1 or 5-1....the game was not that close. You could see Argentina was more skilled, organized and in better shape almost across the board. They had superior tactics. US would try and pass and it would seem like Arg had 4 guys on the ball. US was just overwhelmed....it was not pretty.
I'm not saying that Lebron is actually good at soccer, but if he had dedicated the time he put into basketball into soccer, with his athleticism, he would still probably be pretty good.
FC Dallas is trying. We're still probably a generation away though.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/9/21/16341796/nba-aau-fc-dallas-player-development
Does Aaron judge hit a home run every game? Does the best RB or WR in the nfl score a TD every game?
In over 300 competitive marches for Barcelona Lionel Messi averages one goal every 1.14 games. Nearly a goal a game.
I don't think he's necessarily disagreeing with you guys. I'll admit I'm a fan, but a very unsophisticated one, and I genuinely can't tell the different in quality of play between two teams unless one is just significantly better than the other.
Thank you. I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying, again, for the casual fan soccer is a very difficult sport to see who is better or worse unless it's completely lopsided. Remember the women's world cup game vs japan and how the USA just dominated? That's the type of game many American sports fans think when they hear one team is significantly better than another team.
Hell Aaron Judge is only getting on base once every four-ish at bats. He really sucks /s
For folks that have not played or do not know a ton about soccer, I'd ask you to watch a couple of different leagues. Watch the English Premier League on the NBC Networks on Saturdays. This is one of the best, if not the best league in the world. The crisp passing, skills, movement and shot taking is amazing. Later that day, turn on an MLS game....very different. This would be like watching SEC football in its prime and then watching UNI play Southern Illinois later that day.
US team is made up mostly of MLS guys, there are a few sprinkled into some of the European leagues. US team would be a collection of Missouri Valley conference players with a couple of SEC players and a few BCS school type players from mediocre teams.
Lots to unpack here, but I've played ODP and all that jazz and have a pretty strong background and knowledge on USMNT soccer and development. To answer some of your questions:
1) MLS has gotten better as a league, yes, but it has benefited other smaller, regional countries more than it has benefited the U.S. Thus Panama and Hondurous and Costa Rica etc are better because they have a real league to play in now.
2) MLS and USMNT are attached at the hip. US Soccer, literally because I deal with this for work, sell the rights to both when you acquire rights. They are pushing MLS guys onto USMNT to drive the MLS brand, thus more money, more TV sets etc. This is the sole reason we are not going to Russia. We didn't even go down playing with our best players, that is the problem.
3) Players are discouraged from playing overseas by the folks at US Soccer. They are encouraged to come back even though they have overseas offers (see: Bradley, Michael, Altidore, Jozy) Essentially saying, we will keep your spot on the NT if you help us grow MLS. **Michael Bradley tangent: He was a world class 6 when he played for Roma. His play has dropped so dramatically since returning to the US, its hard to remember how good he was. He also should never have been put in the position to be a single defensive midfielder. If only we had one playing in the Premier League (we have two)? Or perhaps another younger DM that could play beside him (no shortage here)? The best Bradley has looked all cycle was when he had Acosta playing next to him. 4-2-3-1 should be the formation, but it wasn't and hear we are. End tangent.**
4) College soccer is the reason US can't develop players domestically. The European and South American players have academies that identify at very early ages. Until the US is ready to do this, really ready to let kids give up on schooling and eat, breathe and play soccer all day, we will never get any better. IMF academy in Florida is something similar but every MLS team would have something like that. Pulisic went to Dortmound at 14 I think? Glad Carelton and Weah are going overseas. Glad Lyndon Gooch did it.
5) Look, Jurgen was a terrible tactician, and after the Costa Rica debacle I too was calling for his head, but in hindsight I was probably wrong. JK wasn't let go bc of that loss, he was let go because he was butting heads with US Soccer about prioritizing the MLS players over the European players. There is no reason that our back line last night should have been anything less than Yedlin, Cameron, Ream, Johnson. Period. Jurgen might not have qualified, but at least we would have gone down with our best players. Maybe out of position in a 2-6-1-1 formation, but still our best players.
6) Remember, we haven't played in the last two Olympics (which is a U-23 tournament) and those should be the guys playing during this WC cycle. That is an indictment on US Soccer and MLS inability to develop players.
Its a sad, sad day for US Soccer. Just keep this in mind, Germany got bounced out of Euro's in 2000 and had a 10 year plan and it worked. France missed two WC's in the 90s and they are the favorites this year. It takes some sole searching and changes, but good can come of this, but that good isn't going to be today, or next month, or sadly next Summer.
Go Switzerland! (My wife works for a Swiss based company)
1) MLS has gotten better as a league, yes, but it has benefited other smaller, regional countries more than it has benefited the U.S. Thus Panama and Hondurous and Costa Rica etc are better because they have a real league to play in now.
2) MLS and USMNT are attached at the hip. US Soccer, literally because I deal with this for work, sell the rights to both when you acquire rights. They are pushing MLS guys onto USMNT to drive the MLS brand, thus more money, more TV sets etc. This is the sole reason we are not going to Russia. We didn't even go down playing with our best players, that is the problem.
3) Players are discouraged from playing overseas by the folks at US Soccer. They are encouraged to come back even though they have overseas offers (see: Bradley, Michael, Altidore, Jozy) Essentially saying, we will keep your spot on the NT if you help us grow MLS. **Michael Bradley tangent: He was a world class 6 when he played for Roma. His play has dropped so dramatically since returning to the US, its hard to remember how good he was. He also should never have been put in the position to be a single defensive midfielder. If only we had one playing in the Premier League (we have two)? Or perhaps another younger DM that could play beside him (no shortage here)? The best Bradley has looked all cycle was when he had Acosta playing next to him. 4-2-3-1 should be the formation, but it wasn't and hear we are. End tangent.**
4) College soccer is the reason US can't develop players domestically. The European and South American players have academies that identify at very early ages. Until the US is ready to do this, really ready to let kids give up on schooling and eat, breathe and play soccer all day, we will never get any better. IMF academy in Florida is something similar but every MLS team would have something like that. Pulisic went to Dortmound at 14 I think? Glad Carelton and Weah are going overseas. Glad Lyndon Gooch did it.
5) Look, Jurgen was a terrible tactician, and after the Costa Rica debacle I too was calling for his head, but in hindsight I was probably wrong. JK wasn't let go bc of that loss, he was let go because he was butting heads with US Soccer about prioritizing the MLS players over the European players. There is no reason that our back line last night should have been anything less than Yedlin, Cameron, Ream, Johnson. Period. Jurgen might not have qualified, but at least we would have gone down with our best players. Maybe out of position in a 2-6-1-1 formation, but still our best players.
6) Remember, we haven't played in the last two Olympics (which is a U-23 tournament) and those should be the guys playing during this WC cycle. That is an indictment on US Soccer and MLS inability to develop players.
Its a sad, sad day for US Soccer. Just keep this in mind, Germany got bounced out of Euro's in 2000 and had a 10 year plan and it worked. France missed two WC's in the 90s and they are the favorites this year. It takes some sole searching and changes, but good can come of this, but that good isn't going to be today, or next month, or sadly next Summer.
Go Switzerland! (My wife works for a Swiss based company)
Pulisic being the outlier. He would equate to a CFP/NY6 player. He starts and plays all of the time for a team that competes (and does well) at the highest level of European club football.
On a global scale, I'd say that's pretty fair. On the CONCACAF level, we're an SEC team.
all things considered if you took injuries into play, but not who was called in, our best, technical lineup would be something like
Horvath (Gonzalez or Hamid)
Yedlin, Cameron, Miazga (Ream?), Chandler (I ******* know, but he is better than anyone else and can play on the left side)
Bradley, Williams
Gooch or Arriola, Pulisic, Nagbe
Wood
Bench would be have dempsey, altidore, hyndeman, ccv, accosta and a few other people in case tactics have to change.
Horvath (Gonzalez or Hamid)
Yedlin, Cameron, Miazga (Ream?), Chandler (I ******* know, but he is better than anyone else and can play on the left side)
Bradley, Williams
Gooch or Arriola, Pulisic, Nagbe
Wood
Bench would be have dempsey, altidore, hyndeman, ccv, accosta and a few other people in case tactics have to change.
we are by far the best baseball talent in the world. there are others who are good, but we are the best. can soccer find a hybrid like baseball has where kids still play at HS and then can either go to the training academies (minor league) or college and still end up at the same place?
like, 7 countries play baseball with any sort of competence. The entire world plays soccer. There are plenty of traveling and club teams and development academies, but they still funnel to college teams unless they are the very top 1%.
The reason we lost isn't because we can't develop the top 1%, the reason we aren't going to Russia is because we don't have top level guys that are above average. We need depth and filler, which we don't have right now, and that what was so scary about missing the last two Olympics. That is the pool those players should come from.
