line ups when the 4 players out come back

CyJeans

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Switch Lard out for THT (with the requisite move of Jacobson to the 5) and I think that's exactly it. I just can't see taking THT out of the starting line up. Too good and versatile.

I get what you are saying and I agree with the premise of sticking with what is working but my opinion is based on a couple of other factors as well.

1. Lard's game last year was a bit inconsistent. I think that can be improved upon but I'd rather get him out there early to figure out which Cam you are going to get rather than bring him in a little colder and role the dice after a potentially slow start for the team. Jacobson is consistently good and based on that, better, but Lard has the higher game to game ceiling due to raw talent. If Lard is off then I like going to the bench, going small, and bringing in "instant" points. Plus, in big 12 play I don't think Jacobson will guard some of those big's as well and in some cases them getting going early could screw us.

2. That leads me to my next point. I always prefer a guard being a 6th man, I know that isn't always logical but I like the idea of one of THT, Shayock, or Wiggs in that role because you know they are going to come in hungry and want to score. I think more often that not we will have 4 guard lineups out there anyway so those 4 are going to get minutes either way.
 

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Actually, I'm hoping that Lewis breaking through for a big contribution leads to more big contributions from him.

He's got the best looking shot just has to zen it in.

He was 5-7 from the field, 2-4 from three, and had 16 points in 20 minutes against San Diego State. That is a Dion Waiters level of heat check bench guy performance.

I hope he sticks it out in Ames. I do not know if he see much playing time this season or if he will ever start, but there is going to be a ton of open playing time after this season on the wing after Nick and Marial graduate, and he feels like Tyrus McGee or Donovan Jackson (in his first season when he was a sixth man) where he could be an awesome bench gunner. He scores so much so fast you do not care about his defensive lapses to a point.

Might not be in during the start or end of games, but having him to come in while the other side has its bench in to drill a few threes before they wake up would be great. :)
 
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CyJeans

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I get what you are saying and I agree with the premise of sticking with what is working but my opinion is based on a couple of other factors as well.

1. Lard's game last year was a bit inconsistent. I think that can be improved upon but I'd rather get him out there early to figure out which Cam you are going to get rather than bring him in a little colder and role the dice after a potentially slow start for the team. Jacobson is consistently good and based on that, better, but Lard has the higher game to game ceiling due to raw talent. If Lard is off then I like going to the bench, going small, and bringing in "instant" points. Plus, in big 12 play I don't think Jacobson will guard some of those big's as well and in some cases them getting going early could screw us.

2. That leads me to my next point. I always prefer a guard being a 6th man, I know that isn't always logical but I like the idea of one of THT, Shayock, or Wiggs in that role because you know they are going to come in hungry and want to score. I think more often that not we will have 4 guard lineups out there anyway so those 4 are going to get minutes either way.

Plus to add to this I think Lard would mentally benefit more from starting.
 

SCISUFAN

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I don't disagree with the lineups above. With foul trouble, differing match-ups, etc... we are likely to see various lineups during this year. The one caveat I might have is if Solomon cannot play until the last of December after not being cleared to practice for almost 2 months, it will be tough to get him ready until maybe sometime in February. If this is indeed the case I think a possible medical redshirt could be in the cards.
 
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FinalFourCy

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I outlined this in the computer rankings thread, but I thought I would move some of the same evidence and expand upon the same over here.

Barttovik has a statistic called "PRPG!" on his (?) site. The number is similar to WAR from baseball for the value over a replacement player, but instead of your value in terms of wins over a 162 game season, it is your value in net points per game compared to a replacement college player (so think like a Long or a Beverly). A +1 means you add one point over replacement.

Here is a little tabulation of PRPG! for the eight men eligible this season (with the cardinal backgrounds) and the score for the four guys sitting out right now using their PRPG! for the past season (with the gold backgrounds). This is not to say these guys cannot improve this season relative to last year, but this is what we have right now...

View attachment 60342

For those of you who might say that the guys in gold above were "on a bad team," well, duh. Of course they were. Those four played a substantial number of minutes on that bad team, though, and they were not really playing that well compared to the hot start that the top four guys above and young Mr. Haliburton have us off to starting this season.

This is why I think the following...

-- Jacobson, Shayok, Nick, and THT are not leaving the starting lineup anytime soon
-- Jacobson has been really good... ample playing time is available to Lard as a second post starter or from the bench, but Mike might already be much better than him
-- Wigginton gets his starting spot back when healthy, but Haliburton is still going to see plenty of minutes as the first guard/wing off the bench
-- Haliburton has been very good, and considering he plays a similar position to Talley, Talley might be behind him in the rotation going forward
-- If we only go 7-8 deep, then Zoran might be the odd man out
-- Solomon has the most experience of anybody on the roster, but the talent level has increased so much that he is going to probably be a rotational guy
-- He seems to have the mentality to accept a bench role after starting two seasons, though



Their per 100 splits from this season for Mike and last year for Cameron...

CAMERON
View attachment 60343

MICHAEL
View attachment 60339

Jacobson has just been better so far.

-- not shown above, but Michael has a TS% of 72% versus 60% for Lard
-- Michael is a slightly better free throw shooter and has a higher % from the field
-- Lard has zero range, while Jacobson is shooting 40% from three
-- Jacobson is drawing nearly twice as many fouls
-- Lard does offer much more on the boards, though, and can be a nasty rim-protector if less fundamentally sound on positioning compared to Mike and Solo
-- much better efficiency ratings for Jacobson on both offense and defense

Not saying that Lard cannot do it, and obviously having two dominant big men with contrasting styles on the roster would be really nice, but Jacobson this year is better than Lard last year. Jacobson having an inside-outside game and offering no rim protection while Lard being so good on the offensive glass and lurking for the block makes them viable to play together against bigger lineups when we can do so, though I do not know if I trust either of them guarding a Shayok-type playing small-ball 4. Cameron is going to have to kill it or one of the guards/wings is going to have to hit a wall in the next few weeks to replace him.
Yep.
Jacobson has had a huge impact on our efficiency and effectiveness on both ends. So has having the versatility and passing of Haliburton, Shayok and THT rather than 2017-18 versions of Wigginton and DJ.

We’re more of a driving team than shooting team this year with four long guards on the floor at once. Does the lane get too clogged playing two posts, or even just Lard at the five? Are ball screens as effective with Lard?

Wigginton is going to need to improve to get all of his 30+ minutes back. If he hasn’t, it may be tough to have him play a majority of the game with Shayok and THT imo.
 

Cyclonepride

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I don't disagree with the lineups above. With foul trouble, differing match-ups, etc... we are likely to see various lineups during this year. The one caveat I might have is if Solomon cannot play until the last of December after not being cleared to practice for almost 2 months, it will be tough to get him ready until maybe sometime in February. If this is indeed the case I think a possible medical redshirt could be in the cards.

It would certainly be nice to have Solomon back, but I can definitely see what you're saying. Also wondering if that doesn't solve a bit of the PT issue, and set us up better for next year?
 

Cyclonepride

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Yep.
Jacobson has had a huge impact on our efficiency and effectiveness on both ends. So has having the versatility and passing of Haliburton, Shayok and THT rather than 2017-18 versions of Wigginton and DJ.

We’re more of a driving team than shooting team this year with four long guards on the floor at once. Does the lane get too clogged playing two posts, or even just Lard at the five? Are ball screens as effective with Lard?

Wigginton is going to need to improve to get his 30+ minutes back. If he hasn’t, it may be tough to have him play a majority of the game with Shayok and THT imo.

My main concern with Lard is ball screen defense. With Jacobson out there, we can switch 1-5. I don't think we can do that with Lard.
 

FinalFourCy

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It would certainly be nice to have Solomon back, but I can definitely see what you're saying. Also wondering if that doesn't solve a bit of the PT issue, and set us up better for next year?
There’s merit to RS if he’s not back to himself until nearly February, but if we are hitting our ceiling he’s an asset that could push us to a level like the 13-14 team. His bruising style is needed come March imo
 
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CyJeans

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My main concern with Lard is ball screen defense. With Jacobson out there, we can switch 1-5. I don't think we can do that with Lard.

Will never happen but zone looks wouldn't be bad with Lard and Jacobson. Keep lard parked by the basket and let Jacobson guard the baseline/corners and grab some weak side boards
 

Sigmapolis

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Yep.
Jacobson has had a huge impact on our efficiency and effectiveness on both ends. So has having the versatility and passing of Haliburton, Shayok and THT rather than 2017-18 versions of Wigginton and DJ.

We’re more of a driving team than shooting team this year with four long guards on the floor at once. Does the lane get too clogged playing two posts, or even just Lard at the five? Are ball screens as effective with Lard?

Wigginton is going to need to improve to get his 30+ minutes back. If he hasn’t, it may be tough to have him play a majority of the game with Shayok and THT imo.

The centerpiece of our offense for the past four seasons has been the PNR.

First it was Monté/Georges. It worked well. Monté was going to make the right read and Georges was a threat to score from anywhere on the floor.

Then it was Monté/Deonte. It worked well. Deonte obviously had a different style than Georges, but the guy was a terrific athlete and a good shooter. The fact they had three of the best shooters in school history lurking around it helped, as well.

Last year, it ground down. Lindell and Donovan did not often make the right read, and Nick could do a simulacra of Monté Morris from the point, but neither Lard nor Solomon were enough of an outside threat to keep the defense honest.

Additionally, because we had two big men out there, a secondary help defender was always waiting in the paint to shut it down even if we had a good screen.

Nick/Jackbson has worked very well. Nick makes the correct reads, and Jacobson rolls hard to the basket and is a threat to pull it back and shoot if you cheat him.

Lard would be nice to have to go for the offensive rebound or line up for a lob, but he has no outside shot and therefore cannot set the PNR. His defender is going to be cheating towards the rim way more than somebody needing to watch one of the guards, who are all credible if not fantastic shooters. Shayok or Haliburton with an open look from the corner pleases me. Cameron? The opposing team would be begging him to brick it.

Jacobson is a good passer, too. He is more than happy to feed one of the wings if they have an angle to the basket or if they can uncork an open three.

Our style is that PNR-oriented four-out and one-in. Lard is going to be good in bursts, but Jacobson's versatility matches with the rest of the lineup much better.
 

CyJeans

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There’s merit to RS if he’s not back to himself until nearly February, but if we are hitting our ceiling he’s an asset that could push us to a level like the 13-14 team. His bruising style is needed come March imo

He was a good down low anchor on a senior guard oriented team, he isn't flashy but consistent as hell. I like him as the third big purely because you know what you are going to get. He isn't going to make plays for himself but he isn't going to hurt you.
 
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I'm not sure what's going to play out but one lineup I'd love to see is Talley on the point of the press with NWB and Tyrese on the wings then Shayok/THT + Lard on the back end.
 
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FinalFourCy

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The centerpiece of our offense for the past four seasons has been the PNR.

First it was Monté/Georges. It worked well. Monté was going to make the right read and Georges was a threat to score from anywhere on the floor.

Then it was Monté/Deonte. It worked well. Deonte obviously had a different style than Georges, but the guy was a terrific athlete and a good shooter. The fact they had three of the best shooters in school history lurking around it helped, as well.

Last year, it ground down. Lindell and Donovan did not often make the right read, and Nick could do a simulacra of Monté Morris from the point, but neither Lard nor Solomon were enough of an outside threat to keep the defense honest.

Additionally, because we had two big men out there, a secondary help defender was always waiting in the paint to shut it down even if we had a good screen.

Nick/Jackbson has worked very well. Nick makes the correct reads, and Jacobson rolls hard to the basket and is a threat to pull it back and shoot if you cheat him.

Lard would be nice to have to go for the offensive rebound or line up for a lob, but he has no outside shot and therefore cannot set the PNR. His defender is going to be cheating towards the rim way more than somebody needing to watch one of the guards, who are all credible if not fantastic shooters. Shayok or Haliburton with an open look from the corner pleases me. Cameron? The opposing team would be begging him to brick it.

Jacobson is a good passer, too. He is more than happy to feed one of the wings if they have an angle to the basket or if they can uncork an open three.

Our style is that PNR-oriented four-out and one-in. Lard is going to be good in bursts, but Jacobson's versatility matches with the rest of the lineup much better.
All good points.
On the other hand, if Jacobson keeps playing like this, Lard could play alongside him (or Shayok/THT) like McKay played with Georges.
Although Lard takes some things away on offense, he was a very efficient player on that end, similar to early Ejim. Remember when we had two poor shooting forwards in Ejim and White? Shayok, THT, or Talley have the ability to go that route.

Prohm has a lot of pieces to fit together.
 

bawbie

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Kinda nice we don’t need to worry as much about foul trouble for a change

A hugely underrated aspect of Jacobson's performance so far this year is that he's averaging a foul every 19 minutes, which is awesome for a post. It's allowed him to play 32 minutes per game so far.

For reference, Lard averaged a foul every 10 minutes last year.

As I stated up-thread, I don't think playing 32 minutes is the best usage of an energy guy like Jacobson (or Lard). 20-25 minutes each would be ideal (Lard averaged 26 minutes per game last year)
 

Sigmapolis

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All good points.
On the other hand, if Jacobson keeps playing like this, Lard could play alongside him (or Shayok/THT) like McKay played with Georges.
Although Lard takes some things away on offense, he was a very efficient player on that end, similar to early Ejim. Remember when we had two poor shooting forwards in Ejim and White? Shayok, THT, or Talley have the ability to go that route.

Prohm has a lot of pieces to fit together.

Good point, but I think there is one key difference between somebody like Dustin Hogue or Melvin Ejim and Cameron Lard -- outside shooting.

Hogue and Ejim were not great shooters, but they were credible threats from the outside. You had to guard them out there, and many of the forwards guarding them in that area were unused to playing away from the basket and liable to get driven by.

"Inverting the offense" for that team meant leaving the lane wide open for Kane to drive or Niang to go to work one-on-one against some poor sap.

With Jacobson, we can play five-out like that. Nobody is falling for it if Cameron starts wandering away from the basket, on the other hand.

Your analogy of Niang/McKay is correct. McKay hurt Georges on offense, though, for cluttering up the lane and forcing him to play outside more as a junior and senior.
 
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cycloneG

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What does everyone see Terrence Lewis's role being this year?
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