"if you give a man a fish he's hungry in an hour. If you teach him to fish he'll become self sufficient". Meaning our current NBA talent may NOT have been NBA talent when they left, but left with the tools to learn how to become one. Those are kudos only a good mentor can provide.
Just a brief summary of Prohm's talent v results
- Thread starter ojoe2317
- Start date
Chris Beard 40-32 in B12 play
Bob Huggins is 127-102
Bruce Weber is 72-72
Lon Kruger is 73-73
Scott Drew is 137-147
Steve Prohm is 40-50
Shaka Smart is 40-50
Jamie Dixon is 29-43
Mike Boynton 20-34
Johnny Orr 79-117
Bill Self is a cheater
Bob Huggins is 127-102
Bruce Weber is 72-72
Lon Kruger is 73-73
Scott Drew is 137-147
Steve Prohm is 40-50
Shaka Smart is 40-50
Jamie Dixon is 29-43
Mike Boynton 20-34
Johnny Orr 79-117
Bill Self is a cheater
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CycloneErik
Well-Known Member
That can't be right, because we make fun of Smart.
I think that supports my point rather than contradicting it.
One stud and everything changes in basketball.
Maybe that is Hunter or somebody we don't even know about yet.
Or maybe we're just going to keep on suckin'.
Night-and-day from football. In the football Big 12 Championship you have to play for a right to even get into it. You don't even get to play unless you've established yourself as a top 2 team in the conference.
Basketball, it's 3 days in 3 games. Most teams have an idea whether they are in the NCAA tournament or not. Extreme variance of motivation to win. Nowhere near comparable.
If you want to base success on Big 12 Tournament titles go for it, I guess. Marginal results over the course of a 18 game conference schedule, little if any success in the NCAA tournament, multiple years at the bottom of the Big 12, dozens of 10+ point losses over the last year, but those Big 12 Tournament titles though!
But what would you rather have (just speculating here:
2 tourney appearances in 5 years with a 2nd exit and an Elite 8...or
3 tourney appearances in 5 with a 1st round upset, a 2nd round exit, and a Sweet 16...or
1 tourney appearance in 5 years and it’s a Final Four
This is my CSP take.
Negative: Has recurite talent that has left early, ultimately hurting his teams because they are missing talent that was being counted on to solidify the team in the future. There for he underperforms his recruiting.
Positives: he cares about his players and ISU equally. He isn't Fran McCaffery. He can recruit talent.
With those things in mind I am willing to give him a longer leash.
A) This season is ****** because of COVID and would be a really ****** year to fire a coach and have a new coach coming in trying to keep current players (can't meet as much as neede) and recruit future players.
B) CSP has been able to compete when he gets upper classmen developed. They will be fine. This year is gonna suck, but more so because Haliburton turned into a stud (a great thing) than anything else. He should be a junior on this team, and how good would that team if you have him. CSP recruited that kid thinking he had a 4 year guy, who turned out to be a 2 year guy.
C)The cupboard isn't bear, they have some kids that can play this year. They have had small setbacks as far as practice abilities, as well as COVID to deal with a new squad. Let alone one of the better players on the team hasn't played a game yet. They will be better in February than they are now.
Everyone needs to step back and look at reality, Fred started something, in a landscape that was different than today, CSP was able to pick up and equal Fred's results, he has recruited excellent talent to the team. Also, if you fire him who are you hiring that is better?
Negative: Has recurite talent that has left early, ultimately hurting his teams because they are missing talent that was being counted on to solidify the team in the future. There for he underperforms his recruiting.
Positives: he cares about his players and ISU equally. He isn't Fran McCaffery. He can recruit talent.
With those things in mind I am willing to give him a longer leash.
A) This season is ****** because of COVID and would be a really ****** year to fire a coach and have a new coach coming in trying to keep current players (can't meet as much as neede) and recruit future players.
B) CSP has been able to compete when he gets upper classmen developed. They will be fine. This year is gonna suck, but more so because Haliburton turned into a stud (a great thing) than anything else. He should be a junior on this team, and how good would that team if you have him. CSP recruited that kid thinking he had a 4 year guy, who turned out to be a 2 year guy.
C)The cupboard isn't bear, they have some kids that can play this year. They have had small setbacks as far as practice abilities, as well as COVID to deal with a new squad. Let alone one of the better players on the team hasn't played a game yet. They will be better in February than they are now.
Everyone needs to step back and look at reality, Fred started something, in a landscape that was different than today, CSP was able to pick up and equal Fred's results, he has recruited excellent talent to the team. Also, if you fire him who are you hiring that is better?
We (Iowa State fans) poked fun at Dave Rice for having a ridiculous amount of NBA talent and underperforming (7 NBA players in 4 years)
And 5 years later, we’re seeing the exact same thing now at Iowa State.
And 5 years later, we’re seeing the exact same thing now at Iowa State.
Took the words right out of my mouth - we make fun of Shaka for not being able to produce results with good talent. It seems oddly familiar.
Going 10-8 his first year with all kinds of experience on a loaded roster was maybe the worst coach-job he has produced in his time here.
I’m not trying to defend him for his results but ******** about year 1 is crazy.
What were they in conference the previous year? 12-6. You’ll also note that a key part of that team was lost when Naz’s season ended.
This is actually harder to answer than I first thought. A Final Four or Elite 8 would be fun as hell, but I rarely remember who won the previous years March Madness, much less who made the Final Four (unless it was a big Loyola-type underdog).
I'm not sure if I'd take the trade-off of having one great year, knowing they'd be accompanied by 4 years of missing the tournament, even if that sounds pretty heavenly right now. I like having something to root for in the tournament every year. I pay more attention to other games looking for potential matchups.
Of course, never seeing us in a Final Four makes it easier to make that decision.
I can't argue with Prohm's recruiting......hell, he's probably had better success with it than Hoiberg did.
But I am really starting to wonder about his coaching. He talks endlessly about wanting to play defense, and yet.....you get what I'm saying.
But I am really starting to wonder about his coaching. He talks endlessly about wanting to play defense, and yet.....you get what I'm saying.
Problem is when this defense practices against this offense, it actually looks elite.
Good post, but a few thoughts in response:
A) You mention him "being able to compete when he gets upper classmen developed". I guess I don't see any evidence of that. Who has he really developed into a successful upperclassmen? Any successful upperclassmen he's had he inherited. The other successful players have left after year 1 or 2.
B) This year isn't going to suck because Haliburton left. It's going to suck because of an absolute failure to develop talent. In my mind this isn't as much about the guys who left for the pros, it's about the inability to develop good program guys (i.e., Zion, Grill, TLew, Conditt, etc.)
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Our defense is not anywhere near aggressive enough and it’s way over complicated. Guys seem to be trying to get to where they’re told be rather than get to where they need to be. Playing good man defense is instinctual when it comes to creating turnovers and putting the other team in bad situations. And for this years team, Foster should be starting and patrolling the middle until he fouls out.
No. On the freakin trophy it says tournament champion. On the regular trophy is says Big 12 Champion.
We are way, way past the statute of limitations on blaming Fred. Prohm has coached here longer than Fred and longer than any coach since Orr.
I actually don't think he has brought in much talent. He has had a lot of misses both in HS recruits and transfers. The problem is the talent he did bring in, left early.
