8 year-old assaulted on bus. Advice plz.

[BCClone]

Kids in our district on ieps with higher needs have part and full day helpers. It's more expensive to pay for someone in and out of jail committing crimes. I understand districts being financially strained, this problem is bigger picture.

Yes, and most stated pay extra for special Ed kids. Why is everyone thinking this kid automatically has a learning disability and that is why he is beating on other kids?

Second, the parents have to agree to an IEP (at least in Iowa). If they don’t meet and agree (this is if the special Ed teacher initiates and files everything) to it, or it doesn’t happen.

It may be more expensive to pay for him in jail, but this kid caused brain damage to a girl, isn’t that a social cost now since she may not be able to reach her full potential or she requires extra medical care than she normally would? Are we holding back other students and incurring future costs because they aren’t learning as well due to fear of this kid?

Are we also assuming this kid is going to be a murderer or violent felon? He is picking on people who can’t defend themselves against him as well. He won’t have as many options in the adult world where he will be surrounded by the same group.

 

[madguy30]

Yes, and most stated pay extra for special Ed kids. Why is everyone thinking this kid automatically has a learning disability and that is why he is beating on other kids?

Second, the parents have to agree to an IEP (at least in Iowa). If they don’t meet and agree (this is if the special Ed teacher initiates and files everything) to it, or it doesn’t happen.

It may be more expensive to pay for him in jail, but this kid caused brain damage to a girl, isn’t that a social cost now since she may not be able to reach her full potential or she requires extra medical care than she normally would? Are we holding back other students and incurring future costs because they aren’t learning as well due to fear of this kid?

Are we also assuming this kid is going to be a murderer or violent felon? He is picking on people who can’t defend themselves against him as well. He won’t have as many options in the adult world where he will be surrounded by the same group.

Pretty sure that's the case everywhere.

Same with any sort of interventions, counseling recommendations, etc.

I've seen the opposite of some of this as well because a principal had to play the political/ PR game; had a kid with some severe issues several years ago that would have outbursts and put everyone on edge. The parents asked for him to have consequences, be held back from recess, etc. because that's what they were doing at home, and the school wouldn't go for it.

 

[BCClone]

Pretty sure that's the case everywhere.

Same with any sort of interventions, counseling recommendations, etc.

I've seen the opposite of some of this as well because a principal had to play the political/ PR game; had a kid with some severe issues several years ago that would have outbursts and put everyone on edge. The parents asked for him to have consequences, be held back from recess, etc. because that's what they were doing at home, and the school wouldn't go for it.

I was guessing it would be similar, but didn't want to just assume. Yeah, there is a lot of stupid out there on both sides. Some of the integration is pure dumb. The wife tells me how there are tests where the aid has to read everything to the student. These students are in pods of 4, so the ones very close are trying to concentrate on their test while someone is reading the test to this other student. She says you can tell the other students are definitely distracted by this.

Alternative schools used to be a big thing, then districts were struggling to pay for those 2-4 students (in small districts) to be in a learning environment by themselves so a few would join up but that meant the students had to travel to another town many times. When that happened, many of the students just quit. My oldest had a student go through graduation with him who was 21. On your 21st birthday you are booted from school if you haven't finished and they just "graduate" you.

 

[CascadeClone]

So we diminish the education of a bunch of students to perhaps benefit someone who is disruptive? I know what you mean by the other route, and obviously I don't want that either, but if the child is harming others, the other route is the most likely scenario. Alternative means of educating that child should come into play after some level of misdeed.

My gf daughter was in a jr high class with a kid who regularly lost it, and would throw things around the classroom - books, chairs, his desk even. She was terrified of this kid.

Official protocol was the teacher would remove all the other students from the classroom, and let the kid rage basically. They didn't want to risk hurting the kid by trying to control him was how it was explained to me (which may not be exactly right or the whole story).

WRT the bolded, I 1000% agree. What we are doing now seems insane on the face of it to me. It's like we're so scared of disciplining problem kids that we sacrifice all the others' education and sense of security. I don't have any answers, but it just seems like there has to be a better way. Maybe pull those problem kids to a separate school where behavior specialists can be concentrated to deal with it.

FWIW, apparently rage kid got enough help that he isn't rage kid anymore, and he did graduate hs. So maybe the system works and I don't know jack.

 

[Cyclonepride]

My gf daughter was in a jr high class with a kid who regularly lost it, and would throw things around the classroom - books, chairs, his desk even. She was terrified of this kid.

Official protocol was the teacher would remove all the other students from the classroom, and let the kid rage basically. They didn't want to risk hurting the kid by trying to control him was how it was explained to me (which may not be exactly right or the whole story).

WRT the bolded, I 1000% agree. What we are doing now seems insane on the face of it to me. It's like we're so scared of disciplining problem kids that we sacrifice all the others' education and sense of security. I don't have any answers, but it just seems like there has to be a better way. Maybe pull those problem kids to a separate school where behavior specialists can be concentrated to deal with it.

FWIW, apparently rage kid got enough help that he isn't rage kid anymore, and he did graduate hs. So maybe the system works and I don't know jack.

Well, it worked for him, I guess. I'm curious how many other students were damaged in the process?

 

[madguy30]

I was guessing it would be similar, but didn't want to just assume. Yeah, there is a lot of stupid out there on both sides. Some of the integration is pure dumb. The wife tells me how there are tests where the aid has to read everything to the student. These students are in pods of 4, so the ones very close are trying to concentrate on their test while someone is reading the test to this other student. She says you can tell the other students are definitely distracted by this.

Alternative schools used to be a big thing, then districts were struggling to pay for those 2-4 students (in small districts) to be in a learning environment by themselves so a few would join up but that meant the students had to travel to another town many times. When that happened, many of the students just quit. My oldest had a student go through graduation with him who was 21. On your 21st birthday you are booted from school if you haven't finished and they just "graduate" you.

And in my district, they're really pushing to not pull any kids out to separate areas for this kind of thing or regular instruction (it's basically prepping everyone for further cuts of aids so classroom teachers have to manage everyone on their own).

It's on the presumption that it makes the kids feel bad when in reality being in the same room watching kids be more advanced can have that affect much more, along with the distractions for everyone. You have one teacher giving instruction in one half, and another giving instruction on the other half, etc.

And, many kids whether with an IEP or not, like that time to go out in the halls or wherever to work on things for more space and maybe decompress. We're underselling kids' ability to figure things out on their own.

Apologies to the OP for all of these side rants. I like my job in education but every year I can see why people get out of it.

 

[BCClone]

And in my district, they're really pushing to not pull any kids out to separate areas for this kind of thing or regular instruction (it's basically prepping everyone for further cuts of aids so classroom teachers have to manage everyone on their own).

It's on the presumption that it makes the kids feel bad when in reality being in the same room watching kids be more advanced can have that affect much more, along with the distractions for everyone. You have one teacher giving instruction in one half, and another giving instruction on the other half.

And, many kids whether with an IEP or not, like that time to go out in the halls or wherever to work on things for more space and maybe decompress. We're underselling kids' ability to figure things out on their own.

Apologies to the OP for all of these side rants. I like my job in education but every year I can see why people get out of it.

Amen!!

 

[Carlisle Clone]

The people that "dumb" posts in here are somethin'....Cant just keep scrolling?

 

[carvers4math]

Pretty sure that's the case everywhere.

Same with any sort of interventions, counseling recommendations, etc.

I've seen the opposite of some of this as well because a principal had to play the political/ PR game; had a kid with some severe issues several years ago that would have outbursts and put everyone on edge. The parents asked for him to have consequences, be held back from recess, etc. because that's what they were doing at home, and the school wouldn't go for it.

Everyone assumes the IEP is for negative interventions. All five of my kids had them for math acceleration. There were factors with scheduling and transportation when math was in a different building than everything else. This is when I learned that the district had a bus driver shuffling kids around throughout the day, I think a lot to the hospital according to my kids anyway.

 

[Eclecticlone]

I want to keep the initial post as short as possible. Follow up questions are welcome and appreciated. I need help.

Back in April, our 8 year old son walked into the daycare with a clearly visibly broken arm. The other daycare kids rushed in to tell the employees (My wife being one) that a 16 year old kid intentionally broke our son's arm. (Not only did several kids of all ages claim to witness it, the kid even bragged to another one of the teenagers on the bus.)

We got the police involved, and it was investigated over the course of several weeks. We were assured by the officer that although the other family was trying to stall and shift blame, and that when the kid finally spoke with them he was trying to lie and say my son was on top of him wrestling him in a harassing manner and my sons arm was broken accidently on his own by falling back somehow, everything seemed pretty cut and dry, and the kid would likely be expelled, kicked off the bus, and juvenile court would handle it criminally.

Fast forward to yesterday (Aug 12) my lawyer informs me that not only did the CA decline to charge due to lack of evidence, but the school insurance was unsure if they even needed to grant the claim because the statement given to the police by the bus driver was different than what she had initially given to my wife at the scene of the accident and the statement she gave insurance company themselves.

Why don't we check the bus footage? Well because the camera was down. But don't worry, the school fixed it after the incident so that won't be a problem. The kid still gets to ride the bus because that's his right and they can't take that away from him. Oh and he assaulted another kid at school after his 15 day suspension they gave him for hurting our son, and he is going to be prosecuted for that one.

I think this is a situation where you have to realize the school district has people to please and loyalties to things that aren't you. Proceed accordingly.

They should put the child's safety first. They aren't, that won't change. Go somewhere else, it's your kids life at stake.

 

[madguy30]

Everyone assumes the IEP is for negative interventions. All five of my kids had them for math acceleration. There were factors with scheduling and transportation when math was in a different building than everything else. This is when I learned that the district had a bus driver shuffling kids around throughout the day, I think a lot to the hospital according to my kids anyway.

Absolutely. They're generally in place to give extra support in a subject area that the kid needs it.

 

[BCClone]

Everyone assumes the IEP is for negative interventions. All five of my kids had them for math acceleration. There were factors with scheduling and transportation when math was in a different building than everything else. This is when I learned that the district had a bus driver shuffling kids around throughout the day, I think a lot to the hospital according to my kids anyway.

You had to go in and set those up? When my kids have done classes outside of the regular HS classes they just signed up for them.

 

[carvers4math]

You had to go in and set those up? When my kids have done classes outside of the regular HS classes they just signed up for them.

Yep. It’s a thing when you have like a seventh grader needing to go to high school for Geometry or a fifth grader go to middle school for 8th grade Algebra I. Not same as dual enrollment or AP. When oldest started going to high school math, their block scheduling messed with his middle school classes so I think they exempted him from things that were otherwise required like FACS or shop or art at the time. When they were going to high school from middle school the high school counselor tried to get the appropriate math class for them either first or last period so they weren’t missing as much class time in transit

 

[BCClone]

Yep. It’s a thing when you have like a seventh grader needing to go to high school for Geometry or a fifth grader go to middle school for 8th grade Algebra I. Not same as dual enrollment or AP. When oldest started going to high school math, their block scheduling messed with his middle school classes so I think they exempted him from things that were otherwise required like FACS or shop or art at the time. When they were going to high school from middle school the high school counselor tried to get the appropriate math class for them either first or last period so they weren’t missing as much class time in transit

My kids may have been willing to accelerate in Math if they could have skipped art. They were like me, absolutely hated it.

 

[1SEIACLONE]

One of the biggest problems public education has is what to do with the disruptive student. Ask any teacher and they will tell you that they are spending a heck of lot more time with the disruptive kid than on educating those that want to learn way to often.
Private schools deal with this problem by just sending the student back to the public school, but public schools do not have that option, they have to try and educate kids that are unmotivated and do not want to be there.

I always looked at it from a coaching perceptive, if I spent the majority of my time coaching the bottom 5 players on the roster to get better, every parent of the kids that had talent would raise hell about why I was not coaching the kids to be the best team possible and that their kid was wasting a year. That is what we are dong currently in education, wasting valuable time and resources on kids that do not want it, could care less about an education and do not want to be there. While others that do want to learn and get better are many times left to understand the assignment, because I was again dealing with little Johnny here that is bouncing off the wall. I hate to say it but as the kids get older you either have to remove them from the classroom, or tell them to just sit there so the other kids can learn. You are not going to pass, but I am also not going to give you grief about not turning stuff in. It sucks, but we as educators are there to teach, not play baby sitter.

 

[NWICY]

CF for the most part assumes people are good, the fact is some people are just evil and suck. Those people take up way more resources than they are worth.

 

[carvers4math]

My kids may have been willing to accelerate in Math if they could have skipped art. They were like me, absolutely hated it.

My kid that missed middle school art for high school math actually liked art and music a lot. There’s a reason some refer to STEAM instead of STEM.

 

[Mr.G.Spot]

Find the best damn plaintiff attorney in your geographic area. There will be one that has integrity and is respected. Do not blink with giving them 40% to go rattle everyone's cage. Good luck, and unfortunately, that is your best solution.

 

[VeloClone]

One of the biggest problems public education has is what to do with the disruptive student. Ask any teacher and they will tell you that they are spending a heck of lot more time with the disruptive kid than on educating those that want to learn way to often.
Private schools deal with this problem but just sending the student back to the public school, but public schools do not have that option, they have to try and educate kids that are unmotivated and do not want to be there.

I always looked at it from a coaching perceptive, if I spent the majority of my time coaching the bottom 5 players on the roster to get better, every parent of the kids that had talent would raise hell about why I was not coaching the kids to be the best team possible and that their kid was wasting a year. That is what we are dong currently in education, wasting valuable time and resources on kids that do not want it, could care less about an education and do not want to be there. While others that do want to learn and get better are many times left to understand the assignment, because I was again dealing with little Johnny here that is bouncing off the wall. I hate to say it but as the kids get older you either have to remove them from the classroom, or tell them to just sit there so the other kids can learn. You are not going to pass, but I am also not going to give you grief about not turning stuff in. It sucks, but we as educators are there to teach, not play baby sitter.

I commiserate with the challenges in public education, but as a parent of one kid who was an honor student and in AP classes and another with mental and physical challenges and ADHD (so yes, on occasion he is bouncing off the wall), I have to say that giving up on kids that have barriers to education is not the answer. Yes we need to find a balance but giving up on them is not part of the equation.

My son needs a lot of help in some of his classes. We try to give him as much as we can from home. However some of his teachers make it very difficult for us to help in the instruction of our son. On-line parent tools have out of date, incorrect information. We will check and find no assignments for a class then a few days later find that he has a late assignment that was assigned during that time period. The online tool for checking on work progress is worthless. It shows all assignments turned in and not graded as missing. Some teachers grade work right away, some will wait almost a week before it appears so if it really is missing you are way down the road before you know it - and frankly it is a guess since you don't know if all the other student's work is graded and your kid's is missing or if it still isn't graded. (And what happened to returning graded work to students? Isn't part of grading work is so that we can learn from our mistakes? Feedback of "you got 1.2 out of 4 on this assignment" is next to worthless.) Executive functioning is one of the areas that my son struggles with as part of his disorders. If the parents aren't given the tools to help him organizing and keeping track of his work then that tells me that the school and teachers plan to help my child with that as laid out in his IEP.

This isn't a kid who doesn't try, but some classes with certain skills are extremely difficult for him. Others come a bit easier and in some he actually excells. In fact, he won a math award - one of only two in his entire high school - for last academic year in a pretty large high school.

It is clear to us that a few of the teachers at his school have put him in the category you seem to be putting some students in. Maybe that is fair for some students that don't care and don't try - sad but fair - but for a kid that just needs the extra help to succeed and has proven s/he can and has with help, don't shut parents out who are clearly trying to help you help their kid.

And why the hell aren't we giving those kids grief for not getting assignments done? Send a letter home every day if you have to. It can be a form letter where you just fill in the blank of the missing assignment. Not all do, but THERE ARE STILL PARENTS WHO DO CARE!

Don't get me wrong, the majority of his teachers have been great. He has had a couple of Special Ed teachers who are my heroes, including the one who is his current sports coach. But giving up on kids because they are "bouncing off the walls" and assuming that means that they don't want to try to learn hits a nerve with me.

/RANT

 

[1SEIACLONE]

I commiserate with the challenges in public education, but as a parent of one kid who was an honor student and in AP classes and another with mental and physical challenges and ADHD (so yes, on occasion he is bouncing off the wall), I have to say that giving up on kids that have barriers to education is not the answer. Yes we need to find a balance but giving up on them is not part of the equation.

My son needs a lot of help in some of his classes. We try to give him as much as we can from home. However some of his teachers make it very difficult for us to help in the instruction of our son. On-line parent tools have out of date, incorrect information. We will check and find no assignments for a class then a few days later find that he has a late assignment that was assigned during that time period. The online tool for checking on work progress is worthless. It shows all assignments turned in and not graded as missing. Some teachers grade work right away, some will wait almost a week before it appears so if it really is missing you are way down the road before you know it - and frankly it is a guess since you don't know if all the other student's work is graded and your kid's is missing or if it still isn't graded. (And what happened to returning graded work to students? Isn't part of grading work is so that we can learn from our mistakes? Feedback of "you got 1.2 out of 4 on this assignment" is next to worthless.) Executive functioning is one of the areas that my son struggles with as part of his disorders. If the parents aren't given the tools to help him organizing and keeping track of his work then that tells me that the school and teachers plan to help my child with that as laid out in his IEP.

This isn't a kid who doesn't try, but some classes with certain skills are extremely difficult for him. Others come a bit easier and in some he actually excells. In fact, he won a math award - one of only two in his entire high school - for last academic year in a pretty large high school.

It is clear to us that a few of the teachers at his school have put him in the category you seem to be putting some students in. Maybe that is fair for some students that don't care and don't try - sad but fair - but for a kid that just needs the extra help to succeed and has proven s/he can and has with help, don't shut parents out who are clearly trying to help you help their kid.

And why the hell aren't we giving those kids grief for not getting assignments done? Send a letter home every day if you have to. It can be a form letter where you just fill in the blank of the missing assignment. Not all do, but THERE ARE STILL PARENTS WHO DO CARE!

Don't get me wrong, the majority of his teachers have been great. He has had a couple of Special Ed teachers who are my heroes, including the one who is his current sports coach. But giving up on kids because they are "bouncing off the walls" and assuming that means that they don't want to try to learn hits a nerve with me.

/RANT

You took one phrase I used, "bouncing off the walls" and used that to call out all teachers. Sorry, it does not work that way in many classrooms. The kids that need help are given help, I am talking about the ones that repeatedly refuse to work, give them an assignment and you will find the worksheet on the floor at the end of the class. Never turn anything in, because they have not done it and want to spend the entire period talking and bothering others in the classroom. You can call them out, talk to them one on one, and no matter what you do, they do not listen.

I had very few problems with special ed, kids, those are not the kids I am talking about. I will agree I have know teachers that were not up to date on grading stuff, but I will say, that was never me, you turned it in, it was in the online grade book that day or at most the next day.

You seem like a parent that is involved in your child's education, the ones I am referring too, could care less about their kids education and do not want them at home, because that way they are someone else's problem.

Good luck with your son and keep doing what you are doing.