Principal Financial-Remote work

[KnappShack]

Huh.

"We surveyed 1,400 full-time U.S. employees who were mandated to return to in-office work and found that they had higher burnout, stress, and turnover intentions. They also had lower trust in their organization, engagement, and productivity levels"

"The average employee returning to the office spends $561 per month on transportation, additional child and pet care, and domestic assistance."

Employees are spending the equivalent of a month’s groceries on the return-to-office–and growing more resentful than ever, survey finds

The average employee returning to the office spends $561 per month–that's the average two-person household’s grocery bill in the U.S. for the entire month.

fortune.com

 

[Clonehomer]

We’re still working through what a post-Covid world looks like, but one thing that seems pretty clear is we need to continue to allow life and work to happen together. What that looks like is complicated, but an employer shouldn’t just expect a parent to willingly pay $10-$12,000/year for daycare when they were making it work. They also shouldn’t just expect people to flip and go back to 40 hour week in the office when they’ve gotten used to scheduling things here or there during the day, taking an occasional trip to the park with their kids for an hour…or even meeting a friend for lunch or coffee. Especially when we know that people actually perform better when they get their head out of a screen for a bit.

Part of that is (in my opinion) adjusting expectations for how we expect to interact with a company. If you expect someone to be answering your call and send you forms or provide on-demand assistance, you might have to deal with an overseas customer service rep. While a Mom may be able to provide more of the type of interaction you’re used to, but maybe that means she’s calling you back in two hours…or the next day. Just some thoughts. Obviously feel free to chime in and/or disagree.

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

 

[wxman1]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

Does the average in office employee increase their workday to account for all of the chit chat around the office?

 

[carvers4math]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

Maybe do the same for in office employees? The two hour lunch, the roaming around yapping at coworkers to collaborate about what they did on the weekend, the trip outside for a smoke or a walk, checking your nanny cam, etc. If people get their work done promptly and well, why do you care?

 

[ISULibrarian]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

I mean I'm physically present at work right now. I'm waiting for a student appointment, I just finished teaching a class and sending follow up emails, yet here I am on Cyclone Fanatic and they are still going to pay me the same regardless. I'm not penalized because I'm not working literally every second of the day.

 

[cowgirl836]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

Let's ignore the total destruction of employee trust and morale - think about the cost. What is the waste in resources associated with administering the nanny state?

 

[cowgirl836]

I mean I'm physically present at work right now. I'm waiting for a student appointment, I just finished teaching a class and sending follow up emails, yet here I am on Cyclone Fanatic and they are still going to pay me the same regardless. I'm not penalized because I'm not working literally every second of the day.

I'm literally on a call right now taking notes on that in the background too.

 

[carvers4math]

I mean I'm physically present at work right now. I'm waiting for a student appointment, I just finished teaching a class and sending follow up emails, yet here I am on Cyclone Fanatic and they are still going to pay me the same regardless. I'm not penalized because I'm not working literally every second of the day.

Wonder who else is posting on CF while at work?

 

[KnappShack]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

Employers do monitor clicks. It already happens.

Do I get paid extra when I travel to deliver presentations? Do I get paid extra for practicing after hours and on the weekends for those presentations?

Do I get paid extra for answering company email after hours? It's right there on my phone. Emails get answered at all hours and even on days off. Do I charge extra for that?

There is no difference in my work product or time working. The only difference is I'm not on a train for over two hours a day.

 

[NorthCyd]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

How about just set expectations for the work the employee needs to get done and when it needs to be done by and don't worry so much about how many hours they are "working"? Just because you are sitting at a desk in the office for 8 hours doesn't mean you are being productive. People can look busy and get nothing done in the office just as easily as they can at home. I've seen it plenty of times.

 

[cowgirl836]

Employers do monitor clicks. It already happens.

Do I get paid extra when I travel to deliver presentations? Do I get paid extra for practicing after hours and on the weekends for those presentations?

Do I get paid extra for answering company email after hours? It's right there on my phone. Emails get answered at all hours and even on days off. Do I charge extra for that?

There is no difference in my work product or time working. The only difference is I'm not on a train for over two hours a day.

I saw a Simon Sinek clip last night that said women make better leaders because they - on average - "get" the human condition better and understand that trust, empathy, and love will serve better whereas men will ask him for case studies showing that trusting people delivers results. And I feel that SO MUCH in this thread. Like, we're down in the literal weeds pushing for counting mouse clicks?

Leaders should be at the 10,000ft level. Is the work getting done. Yes or no? Is the work up to par? Yes or no? Is the culture healthy? Yes or no? I do not give a singular **** if you are doing laundry in between meetings or chatting with your coworkers. In fact, I probably WANT you to do that to some extent because NO ONE can be continuously productive for 8+ straight hours a day, week after week, month after month. That's a terrible metric. I want people taking regular breaks and doing monotonous things. I'd probably prefer people take an hour break midday to knit or crochet or woodwork. Take a walk outside at some point too. They'll come up with better ideas and solutions. And if people feel supported and valued - they will deliver better on average. I'm sure you'll have someone in there who takes advantage. If they truly are, it will come through in the results.

 

[cowgirl836]

And as an addendum - I recognize we're largely talking white collar work here and many professions don't have the same flexiblity afforded to them. I'd probably argue that's why the rate of burnout/turnover in professions like public teaching, nursing, medical and care providers is so high. Along with pay in a couple of those.

 

[cyclonestunners]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

It's an interesting argument when you don't work in a service industry job or hourly. If you get your work done, why does it matter how that time is spent?

Why does it matter if your time is an hour at the park, vs an hour talking to fellow employees at work?

 

[4cy16]

I mean I'm physically present at work right now. I'm waiting for a student appointment, I just finished teaching a class and sending follow up emails, yet here I am on Cyclone Fanatic and they are still going to pay me the same regardless. I'm not penalized because I'm not working literally every second of the day.

 

[qwerty]

Does the average in office employee increase their workday to account for all of the chit chat around the office?

Yes, typically work 9+ hours

 

[State2015]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

Ok teachers pet - does your company know you’re on CF at work today? Better get a camera on you!

 

[CycloneSpinning]

Maybe do the same for in office employees? The two hour lunch, the roaming around yapping at coworkers to collaborate about what they did on the weekend, the trip outside for a smoke or a walk, checking your nanny cam, etc. If people get their work done promptly and well, why do you care?

Exactly. I remember when I was working in Chicago, there were four ladies there who followed a daily routine that involved very little actual work - I would estimate about 2-3 of their 8 hours each day was work. The rest was a very predictable routine of personal conversation times, meal planning, and then going to the cafeteria for those meals.

I’ve also seen people on here talking about how little they work at their jobs, so I do reject the notion that being in the office means greater productivity.

 

[dmclone]

As much as I hate working in the office, I did have a situation last week that worked a lot better by being in the office. We had a corporate wide outage that we had to triage. The event lasted about 30 minutes, and went more smoothly than when we were all at home.

Out loud

Jason-"Mark from accounting just reported that he is unable to get into ****"
Fred-"Yep, same for me"
Tony-"Me too. Looks like we need to call a severity event. What are we thinking?"
Jason, Fred, Eric-"One","One","One"
Tony-"Ok, Eric can I have you handle communication on this one? Jason you work with the vendor. I'll work with the command center"

That right there took less than a minute. We then had to get on Teams and tell the rest of the team who works remote. Not sure who actually read that message, but one of them offered to help.

We then all gathered in a drop in conference room and worked to identify the issue and get all parties involved that needed to be there. There were about 10 people in the room and their chit chat amongst themselves helped identify that the problem had to be on the vendor side, which was confirmed a few minutes later. Since this was a vendor issue, are hands were somewhat tied, but we did discuss best practices if this happens again.

With all of that said, this was the first time in the last year that I've seen a huge benefit. It's clear that our most experienced team members, who are primarily office-based, played a pivotal role in resolving the issue efficiently.

 

[Gunnerclone]

So if a company were to say, sure you can work from home but I’m only paying you for when you’re actually working. Would it be fair to put cameras or monitor mouse movements and clicks to determine the hours you worked that day and pay you for those hours?

Cause, how many are including that hour in the park as part of their 8 hour days? Or running upstairs to change the laundry or whatever you’re doing that’s saving you money by WFH. Does the average employee increase their workday to account for all of that?

My workday increases or decreases depending on how much work there is to do and how fast I do it.

 

[CycloneSpinning]

I saw a Simon Sinek clip last night that said women make better leaders because they - on average - "get" the human condition better and understand that trust, empathy, and love will serve better whereas men will ask him for case studies showing that trusting people delivers results. And I feel that SO MUCH in this thread. Like, we're down in the literal weeds pushing for counting mouse clicks?

Leaders should be at the 10,000ft level. Is the work getting done. Yes or no? Is the work up to par? Yes or no? Is the culture healthy? Yes or no? I do not give a singular **** if you are doing laundry in between meetings or chatting with your coworkers. In fact, I probably WANT you to do that to some extent because NO ONE can be continuously productive for 8+ straight hours a day, week after week, month after month. That's a terrible metric. I want people taking regular breaks and doing monotonous things. I'd probably prefer people take an hour break midday to knit or crochet or woodwork. Take a walk outside at some point too. They'll come up with better ideas and solutions. And if people feel supported and valued - they will deliver better on average. I'm sure you'll have someone in there who takes advantage. If they truly are, it will come through in the results.

This is a really good point (really several good points). I had a job right out of college where I was cold-calling current clients, checking on their service and trying to dig into whether there was an opportunity for additional sales. I had a phone and a paper list, but I also had a computer. I would get through so much of my list and take a brain break on the computer. For whatever reason, they decided to take my computer away…said I didn’t need to browse the internet to do my job. True…but my job satisfaction plummeted.

I absolutely hated my job. I hated Sundays because it meant I had to go back the next day. I probably only lasted another six weeks. When I left, they thanked me, said I had done great work, and seemed to indicate I was one of the best they’d had in that position…and left the door open to my return (not that I would have considered it).

Shouldn’t they have given me that space to take my head out of my work? Or was I stealing time? And what of the fact that many of them took frequent cigarette breaks?