Baylor Loss Thread

Dingus

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I'm sure you were pretty pouty about this vs. OU, Texas, and Iowa right?

You mean Iowa, where Morris drove the lane and made a 5 foot floater? Good example.

There was no last second play vs. Texas, we won by 10. Do you mean Texas last year? We had 6 sec to go the length of the floor from taking the ball out of bounds, which is a big difference.

OU was fairly similar (though about 5 feet closer and its a shot he routinely makes as opposed to the pull up, fadeaway on the line 2). So we're 1-2 (OU, @TT, @BU) this season in games that end in that play.

I'm not ragging on Morris for not making some of those shots; they're very tough shots. I'm just not sure why that's all we seem to be able to come up with at the end of games.
 

Gunnerclone

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You mean Iowa, where Morris drove the lane and made a 5 foot floater? Good example.

There was no last second play vs. Texas, we won by 10. Do you mean Texas last year? We had 6 sec to go the length of the floor from taking the ball out of bounds, which is a big difference.

OU was fairly similar (though about 5 feet closer and its a shot he routinely makes as opposed to the pull up, fadeaway on the line 2). So we're 1-2 (OU, @TT, @BU) this season in games that end in that play.

I'm not ragging on Morris for not making some of those shots; they're very tough shots. I'm just not sure why that's all we seem to be able to come up with at the end of games.

Watch basketball. Seth Davis should too. It takes at least 5 seconds just to get in to a set, each set either has multiple screens and requires multiple passes to create the matchup. Defenses are basically given carte blanche in those late situations to grab, hold, and bump because the refs don't want to blow. Coaches have worked out that letting your talented players do what they do best and basically play one on one out on the perimeter and hopefully leaving enough time for a tip in on a miss is the best play at the end. I'm sure they've got the analytics on it.
 

Dingus

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Watch basketball. Seth Davis should too. It takes at least 5 seconds just to get in to a set, each set either has multiple screens and requires multiple passes to create the matchup. Defenses are basically given carte blanche in those late situations to grab, hold, and bump because the refs don't want to blow. Coaches have worked out that letting your talented players do what they do best and basically play one on one out on the perimeter and hopefully leaving enough time for a tip in on a miss is the best play at the end. I'm sure they've got the analytics on it.

Yeah, I realize there wasn't time to run an entire offense. But why not at least do a pick and roll with Georges or Burton?

I agree on at least giving enough time for a offensive rebound if possible, which we did, just came 0.1 seconds short. Remember that almost incredible game winning put back dunk by Ejim?

Of course, since Monte is really good, every game we play is close, and it's all we seem to do at the end, I have no doubt this exact play will win at least one game going forward. Hopefully in the NCAA tournament. And I'll be right here saying 'Great play! Morris is cold blooded!' Lol.
 
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SolarGarlic

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For the thousandth time, the TT play was designed to get Georges the ball in the post. Morris didn't like the angle. Watch it again. It's the same play we ran against OSU twice down the stretch for layups. Prohm isn't telling Morris to do whatever he wants.
 

SolarGarlic

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As for the Baylor play, I don't know what was going through Morris' head. He had a good night shooting outside, but you know he had to have the TT in his head in that situation.
 

Tre4ISU

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Yeah, I realize there wasn't time to run an entire offense. But why not at least do a pick and roll with Georges or Burton?

I agree on at least giving enough time for a offensive rebound if possible, which we did, just came 0.1 seconds short. Remember that almost incredible game winning put back dunk by Ejim?

Of course, since Monte is really good, every game we play is close, and it's all we seem to do at the end, I have no doubt this exact play will win at least one game going forward. Hopefully in the NCAA tournament. And I'll be right here saying 'Great play! Morris is cold blooded!' Lol.

Morris is our most efficient player by a wide margin.
 

Clonefan32

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I am not sure what to think about this team anymore. At some point, you would think that a team made up of experienced juniors and seniors would learn how to close out games, but this team doesn't seem to be capable of that.

How the hell does your All-American not take a shot the last six minutes of a close game? I don't care what the other team was doing defensively....that just can't happen. Plus, it appears that some of Monte's last second heroics from last year have gone to his head or something. That or he is trying to impress some NBA pundits and scouts, and failing miserably at it.

This team is not a team any more. That is pretty obvious. I don't know if they have tuned out Prohm, and each other, or if he is just incapable of taking over a bunch who act like a group of prima donnas. Whatever the problem is, this group, including the coaching staff does not seem capable, or maybe willing to work it out.

It is obvious now that losing Naz, and what he added, on the floor was devastating. This team is a very pedestrian, mediocre 10-8 since he ended his season. Yes, those losses have been almost exclusively to top 35-40 RPI teams, but so what? They also include a loss to UNI on a neutral court. Plus, this was a top 5 rated team to start the season, and is in the top 40 in RPI itself.

Another obvious problem, as most everyone points out, is depth. Yes, this team lacks strong bench play, but after 7 or 8 last possession losses, it should be obvious that maybe, just maybe, the starters do not have the stamina left at the end of games to close them out, and maybe just maybe the rotation needs to be adjusted so that those starters have something left at the end of the game. It really doesn't matter if those bench players contribute much on the floor. Their purpose should be to do what they can out there, don't do anything stupid, and give the starters 5 - 10 minutes of rest. If this current pattern continues, no way will this team do well in March after the first round.

This team will be lucky to finish 10-8 in conference. Maybe by some miracle they will get their act together and win at KU or WVU, but I just don't see it happening.

I think this is going to go down as perhaps the most disappointing MBB season in ISU history (relative to expectations), if it isn't already there.

I see your point, but I do think it's often overlooked how unfair this process is to the players. Just think, you are either a high school or JUCO recruit. Fred and his staff love your game and convince you to come here. You build relationships with the staff, they give you a good picture of what your role in the program is.

Fred leaves, you don't really want to go sit out a year. The NCAA will let your coach bolt, but you have to pay the price to leave. A new coach comes in, different expectations, different offense, sees you in a different role. It's not the situation you signed up for, but you really have no other options.

Moral of the story, I think we take for granted how much Fred leaving may have affected some of these guys. Jameel probably saw his role in the offense increasing, making him more than just a pick and roll player, and Prohm had other ideas. Cooke probably saw himself playing a strong role off the bench, and now he can't get off of it. That would be frustrating when the coach who convinced you to came leaves with little regard for how you will blend with your new coach.
 

cycloneworld

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What does Seth Davis's coaching resume look like?

Come on. The guy isn't saying he would be a better coach. He is saying he watches A TON of basketball games and practice and what teams practice for end game situations doesn't happen very often. Jeez people...
 

Clonefan32

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Come on. The guy isn't saying he would be a better coach. He is saying he watches A TON of basketball games and practice and what teams practice for end game situations doesn't happen very often. Jeez people...

I think it's an unrealistic expectation to "run your offense". Sure, people have set plays they can rely on. The problem with a set place is they can usually be pretty easily. How many times at the end of games have you seen a defense switch a screen, or hard hedge a pick, and the point guard is left in no man's land with only a few second left trying to create?
 

Dingus

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For the thousandth time, the TT play was designed to get Georges the ball in the post. Morris didn't like the angle. Watch it again. It's the same play we ran against OSU twice down the stretch for layups. Prohm isn't telling Morris to do whatever he wants.

I never blamed Prohm; I assume Prohm isn't looking for a long contested 2 in that situation. But it's what we've ended up with on two successive, nearly identical situations.

Maybe teams are waiting for it.
 
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Lafaester54

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We can add about ten more pages of threads discussing what we should have done regarding last second offensive sets. In reality, our offense is really pretty great. We also execute pretty well in crucial situations remembering that the other team is executing their defense, too.
Our problem is defense, whether it is execution, fatigue , lack of quickness at a couple of positions, people not playing "team" defense, McKay not being physical enough (defense is a lot more than blocked shots) and being unable to deny position or whatever. We are a poor defensive team and even when our offense is good we have to score a lot to win. Our playing our starters so many minutes simply magnifies this. We need to hope we have an almost flawless offense and hit a higher % of threes to get on a run in the remainder of the season and the B12 and ncaa tourneys. If we get a seed and play a similar team to a B12 team we could do well. If we play some pressure defense team, especially one with some size that gets us out of the flow of our offense it will be a big problem.
 

allfourcy

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We can add about ten more pages of threads discussing what we should have done regarding last second offensive sets. In reality, our offense is really pretty great. We also execute pretty well in crucial situations remembering that the other team is executing their defense, too.
Our problem is defense, whether it is execution, fatigue , lack of quickness at a couple of positions, people not playing "team" defense, McKay not being physical enough (defense is a lot more than blocked shots) and being unable to deny position or whatever. We are a poor defensive team and even when our offense is good we have to score a lot to win. Our playing our starters so many minutes simply magnifies this. We need to hope we have an almost flawless offense and hit a higher % of threes to get on a run in the remainder of the season and the B12 and ncaa tourneys. If we get a seed and play a similar team to a B12 team we could do well. If we play some pressure defense team, especially one with some size that gets us out of the flow of our offense it will be a big problem.

Obviously we need better defense. I swear we were focusing on that all preseason. I swear we looked better at it than last year. I swear that Prohm was going to instill it better than Fred. I swear we do the best we can considering our lack of depth and length. Now.....I just swear a lot after the tough losses. :eek:

But will be right back the next game just like most of us. I'm going to remind myself to enjoy the seniors but especially watching Niang these last 3 games in Hilton to the fulllest as he's one of a kind.
 

CyclOwnd

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At what point is the performance of this basketball team on the coaching staff? Who would have thought we would be playing this level of competitiveness this past summer? I understand it comes down to the players executing, but I saw no game plan to initiate execution on defense. I understand depth, but I would also like to see all other teams that predominately go 7 deep and where they are at in national standings. I'll end this rant with the well known fact that Niang's last field goal wast with ~6 minutes left in regulation.
 

Spam

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At what point is the performance of this basketball team on the coaching staff? Who would have thought we would be playing this level of competitiveness this past summer? I understand it comes down to the players executing, but I saw no game plan to initiate execution on defense. I understand depth, but I would also like to see all other teams that predominately go 7 deep and where they are at in national standings. I'll end this rant with the well known fact that Niang's last field goal wast with ~6 minutes left in regulation.

It doesn't have to be "on" anybody. We're not an elite team.

We don't need to blame anybody for us not being a Top 10 team. But we need to thank a bunch of people for us being a Top 25 team. Hoiberg. Prohm. The players.
 

CyclOwnd

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It doesn't have to be "on" anybody. We're not an elite team.

We don't need to blame anybody for us not being a Top 10 team. But we need to thank a bunch of people for us being a Top 25 team. Hoiberg. Prohm. The players.

It seems the talent and experience level of players is there to be an elite team, but since we are not there is something preventing us from reaching that level. I guess my question is, why is that? The main reason i can think of is the change in coaching, we were elite last year with the same players.
 

CyclOwnd

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We just can't have good things....

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Spam

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It seems the talent and experience level of players is there to be an elite team, but since we are not there is something preventing us from reaching that level. I guess my question is, why is that? The main reason i can think of is the change in coaching, we were elite last year with the same players.

Our starters offensively are elite. That's where the eliteness ends. It's one thing have an offensively elite group of starters, another thing to be an elite team.

Defensively we are not elite. Starters or not. Depth we do not have. Offensive depth or defensive depth.

All those things matter, and are the difference between an elite team (which we are not) and a very good team (which we are).
 

madguy30

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It seems the talent and experience level of players is there to be an elite team, but since we are not there is something preventing us from reaching that level. I guess my question is, why is that? The main reason i can think of is the change in coaching, we were elite last year with the same players.

ISU wasn't elite last year. They were top 15 consistently but not much worse or better, like this year's team, and were all over the map for consistency like this year's. Difference in wins was winning at Texas and at home vs. WV, and winning the SEC challenge.

Nights like last night were similar to last year, and games like WV this year, where even when ISU had a lead, it didn't feel like it would stick, and the end was all to familiar in how it played out.

Earlier this year a game like CO and a couple of others felt like ISU was in control even if up just a few, but that's gone away.

I assume they'll make the tourney, and my expectations were that a Sweet 16 would be the ceiling, but I'm not sure they're capable of playing that well/smart for two games in a row.
 

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