line ups when the 4 players out come back

LLCoolCY

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Not really. Lard was one of those options a year ago. If Jeff Beverly can hold off Lard for many games, Jacobson and THT can also.

More options, but the current starters are not Beverly level.

Last years situation is fairly different than this years.
Lard was a new player to the league that Prohm wanted to earn the starters minutes and did after all starting conference time. Beverly and Jacobson were post grad transfers brought in to play as a result of missing on Shakur. They were senior and I am sure Prohm assured them a certain amount of playing time to come to Ames for the final year and wanted to follow through on the opportunity. It wasn't Beverly's play/talent that held Lard on the bench for a hand full of games rather circumstances.
If we think Prohm is loyal to the established players (I do) it is an argument for Lard to start sooner than later. I am sure Prohm has already told both Jacobson and Lard of what they needed to do for minutes and will stick to his plan that they discussed prior to the season.
 
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AuH2O

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Not really. Lard was one of those options a year ago. If Jeff Beverly can hold off Lard for many games, Jacobson and THT can also.

More options, but the current starters are not Beverly level.
Yes Lard was an option and was better than Beverly out of the gate, but I assume it was important to send the message to Lard (and the team) that him being better than Beverly wasn't good enough. He needed to bring it every day so he and the team can reach their potential.
 

Sigmapolis

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I do not think we need to act like we were debating extremes here.

We are not debating who should play 35 minutes and who should ride the pine every night. Everybody thinks they are both going to be key contributors.

Using the political analogy, we are debate if a tax rate should be 30% or 35%. We are not debating single-payer healthcare versus abolishing Medicare entirely.

And nothing between that -- one or the other. :)

The crux of the debate was who starts of Jacobson and Lard -- see the thread title for lineups -- and therefore which of the two was "better."

I think all of us would basically agree...

-- Jacobson has a more polished offensive game and is more fundamentally sound on defense, but Lard can protect the rim and grab more on the offensive boards

-- Jacobson has an outside game on offense and defense, which is a good fit with our system, but it also makes him a viable Stretch-4 with Lard bringing a whole new level of ups, athleticism, and energy to the 5 spot near the rim, even if he has no range

-- both are likely to play significant, starter-like minutes, and I think most of us agree with us possessing six men right now with credible cases to be in the starting lineup

I think we would agree on these fundamental, bedrock principles with each other.

Everything else after that was just for fun. :)
 

FinalFourCy

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Yes Lard was an option and was better than Beverly out of the gate, but I assume it was important to send the message to Lard (and the team) that him being better than Beverly wasn't good enough. He needed to bring it every day so he and the team can reach their potential.
What makes you think it’s any different now, other than Jacobson being at least Lard’s equal.
 

Psiclone

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What makes you think it’s any different now, other than Jacobson being at least Lard’s equal.

"Jacobson being at least Lard’s equal?" Could you please share what information you have re: Lard's current playing abilities which allow you to make this comparison? Not saying your statement isn't true, just wanting some facts/observations by people who have seen Lard's game NOW vs. last year. As far as what I can gather from articles/message boards, Lard is dominant in practices. I assume that Jacobson and Lard go head-to-head frequently in practice.

Thanks in advance for the information.
 

FinalFourCy

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"Jacobson being at least Lard’s equal?" Could you please share what information you have re: Lard's current playing abilities which allow you to make this comparison? Not saying your statement isn't true, just wanting some facts/observations by people who have seen Lard's game NOW vs. last year. As far as what I can gather from articles/message boards, Lard is dominant in practices. I assume that Jacobson and Lard go head-to-head frequently in practice.

Thanks in advance for the information.
There you go again, thinking hope of improvement is the equivalent of 7 games, as well as the games. We have a lot of data on Lard as a player.
 

cycloneG

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I do not think we need to act like we were debating extremes here.

We are not debating who should play 35 minutes and who should ride the pine every night. Everybody thinks they are both going to be key contributors.

Using the political analogy, we are debate if a tax rate should be 30% or 35%. We are not debating single-payer healthcare versus abolishing Medicare entirely.

And nothing between that -- one or the other. :)

The crux of the debate was who starts of Jacobson and Lard -- see the thread title for lineups -- and therefore which of the two was "better."

I think all of us would basically agree...

-- Jacobson has a more polished offensive game and is more fundamentally sound on defense, but Lard can protect the rim and grab more on the offensive boards

-- Jacobson has an outside game on offense and defense, which is a good fit with our system, but it also makes him a viable Stretch-4 with Lard bringing a whole new level of ups, athleticism, and energy to the 5 spot near the rim, even if he has no range

-- both are likely to play significant, starter-like minutes, and I think most of us agree with us possessing six men right now with credible cases to be in the starting lineup

I think we would agree on these fundamental, bedrock principles with each other.

Everything else after that was just for fun. :)

Great summary!

Whoever starts has some serious help with how well the wings are at digging this season. I like that they've gone away from straight up doubling the post to just digging constantly.
 
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Cyforce

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Until I see different I'm going to consider 20 minutes a game out of Lard a windfall. However, that's plenty if we can get a total of sixty out of our three bigs.

THT and Shayok split the remaining sixty minutes for the wings. I Think Talley might have Trouble taking minutes from either but he'd be the first guy in out of the rotation. Same with Lewis but if he stays hot he'll be hard to sit.

Haliburton backs up Wiggy and NWB.
Seems like a very salty eight plus two.
 
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Psiclone

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There you go again, thinking hope of improvement is the equivalent of 7 games, as well as the games. We have a lot of data on Lard as a player.

I must have missed games in which Lard played THIS SEASON. Pray tell all of us what CURRENT data exists on Lard's game?

Thanks.
 
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FinalFourCy

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I must have missed games in which Lard played THIS SEASON. Pray tell all of us what CURRENT data exists on Lard's game?

Thanks.
Sticking with seven games being insignificant of a sample compared to hope? Remember when you claimed past data shouldn’t be used?

But sure, continue to think we don’t know anything about Lard. Do you also have Talley and Young as now being better than Lard. It’s possible they improved, and Young was one of the staff’s most trusted starters.
 

IASTATE07

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I'm a little concerned the media was playing rugby before basketball practice today.
 

Psiclone

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There you go again, thinking hope of improvement is the equivalent of 7 games, as well as the games. We have a lot of data on Lard as a player.

Yes, we have PAST data on Lard as a player. We are now in the 2018-19 season. I have not said that Lard IS currently better/equal than Jacobson, only that we don't have enough data to reach a conclusion either way. Since you apparently do not have CURRENT data on Lard's abilities, reaching a conclusion about Lard is baseless.
 

FinalFourCy

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Yes, we have PAST data on Lard as a player. We are now in the 2018-19 season. I have not said that Lard IS currently better/equal than Jacobson, only that we don't have enough data to reach a conclusion either way. Since you apparently do not have CURRENT data on Lard's abilities, reaching a conclusion about Lard is baseless.
This started with someone saying it was silly to have Jacobson starting over Lard and another saying Lard was a better defender basing it off last year. Those cannot be made without assuming something about Lard on even less data than what we have on Jacobson.

You’re playing “we don’t know” card, which is completely invalid. We know a lot more than we don’t. We don’t have data on how any players will be performing in March, but I assume you don’t have Wigginton sitting behind Haliburton.
You’ve got a lot to learn about life
 
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Doc

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Great summary!

Whoever starts has some serious help with how well the wings are at digging this season. I like that they've gone away from straight up doubling the post to just digging constantly.

The freshmen have some great hands and instincts defensively.
 

Sigmapolis

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Probably in the minority, but I would limit Babb's minutes and play whichever combo of freshman at guard works out the best all season.

I can see backing him down A LOT whenever you can, like December outside of Iowa.

He is really good. Keeping him healthy is a priority.

If we do not need him in any particular game, I am fine backing him way down to let Wigginton or Haliburton play the point and play the freshmen wings/Lewis more.
 

Psiclone

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This started with someone saying it was silly to have Jacobson starting over Lard and another saying Lard was a better defender basing it off last year. Those cannot be made without assuming something about Lard on even less data than what we have on Jacobson.

You’re playing “we don’t know” card, which is completely invalid. We know a lot more than we don’t. We don’t have data on how any players will be performing in March, but I assume you don’t have Wigginton sitting behind Haliburton.
You’ve got a lot to learn about life

No, I don't have Wigginton sitting behind Haliburton because we have Wigginton was a difference maker based on many, many more games than what the team has played so far this year. Lard, based on similar data, is also a difference maker, which is why he was selected to to the Big XII pre-season All Conference Team. Jacobson is a very solid player and I'm glad we have him on the team. But, I doubt anyone is putting him on an all conference team at this point based on a small pool of games, none of which include a conference game.

Yes, I am playing the "we don't know" card. You know why? Because WE DON'T KNOW, and I assume you don't either since you have not produced any evidence of Lard's CURRENT playing abilities. If a statement is made comparing two things about which we only have data on one of those things, the only conclusion possible is that there is insufficient data to make a valid comparison.

I highly recommend taking a logic/semantics class. Let me simplify the argument with an example: If you reach a conclusion "X > ?", you can't test the validity of the statement unless you know what "?" is. Pretty simple as far as logic/semantics problems go and something even a junior high student can understand.

And do try holding back on the insults such as "I have a lot to learn about life." Such statements are immature and, ironically, reveal which person really has "a lot to learn about life."
 
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