Officiating question....

[Cycsk]

Lots of comments.

First, consider the source. Big surprise that a Lawrence newspaper article leans toward the KU perspective.

Second, the article simply goes to the "you can't take points off the board" argument. That seems ridiculous. Surely there are dozens of examples where a scorer made a mistake (missing a free throw, giving 2 points instead of a 3) which were spotted and fixed even if play had resumed.

Third, @ruxCYtable puts a lot of emphasis on the possibility that the ref says "one-and-one." However, it is not clear at all that he does. Seems odd that the Lawrence article doesn't even suggest that possibility.

Fourth, in the list @ruxCYtable gives above, why wouldn't this be considered a correctible error of "erroneously counting or canceling a score?"

The refs properly stopped the game, but only fixed half of what they did wrong (gave Homan the second free throw, but did not away the three-point shot).

It continues to be the most blatant example of 5-on-8 against KU . . . and that is saying something.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

Lots of comments.

First, consider the source. Big surprise that a Lawrence newspaper article leans toward the KU perspective.

Second, the article simply goes to the "you can't take points off the board" argument. That seems ridiculous. Surely there are dozens of examples where a scorer made a mistake (missing a free throw, giving 2 points instead of a 3) which were spotted and fixed even if play had resumed.

Third, @ruxCYtable puts a lot of emphasis on the possibility that the ref says "one-and-one." However, it is not clear at all that he does. Seems odd that the Lawrence article doesn't even suggest that possibility.

Fourth, in the list @ruxCYtable gives above, why wouldn't this be considered a correctible error of "erroneously counting or canceling a score?"

The refs properly stopped the game, but only fixed half of what they did wrong (gave Homan the second free throw, but did not away the three-point shot).

It continues to be the most blatant example of 5-on-8 against KU . . . and that is saying something.

I agree, but also would say the touchdown run from half court against KSU to win the game has to get some votes in the blatant category.

 

[VeloClone]

I agree, but also would say the touchdown run from half court against KSU to win the game has to get some votes in the blatant category.

It took me a second, but props...

 

[ruxCYtable]

Second, the article simply goes to the "you can't take points off the board" argument. That seems ridiculous. Surely there are dozens of examples where a scorer made a mistake (missing a free throw, giving 2 points instead of a 3) which were spotted and fixed even if play had resumed.

Third, @ruxCYtable puts a lot of emphasis on the possibility that the ref says "one-and-one." However, it is not clear at all that he does. Seems odd that the Lawrence article doesn't even suggest that possibility.

Fourth, in the list @ruxCYtable gives above, why wouldn't this be considered a correctible error of "erroneously counting or canceling a score?"

The refs properly stopped the game, but only fixed half of what they did wrong (gave Homan the second free throw, but did not away the three-point shot).

It continues to be the most blatant example of 5-on-8 against KU . . . and that is saying something.

Your Second Point. As I mentioned in a previous post, this is not among the five definitions of a correctable and not subject to the correctable error procedure. This is, according to the rules, "a bookkeeping mistake," and may be corrected at any time (NFHS rule 2-11-11.)

Third. Again, as I said in a previous post, the remedy that was used supports that this is what happened. As for why the article didn't mention it, perhaps the person who wrote it hadn't read a rule book or officiated for over 20 years.

Fourth. This correctable error refers to a different scenario. Examples given by NFHS (NFHS and NCAA rules on correctable errors are the same): A2 makes a shot with his foot on the three point line but an official signals a three-point make; B2 goaltends and the official fails to notify the table to score the basket.

Here's a flow chart I found in an NFHS that illustrates it pretty well. And LOOK, I am not saying it wasn't an egregious mistake. It absolutely was. But you guys are shooting the messenger here. I'm just telling you what I believe happened (as supported by this chart) and what the rule is.

 

[CYdTracked]

I still blame Wayne Morgan for not doing something to stop the game play once Homan missed that first free throw. I could only imagine that Eustachy probably would have ran out onto the court and grabbed a ref or something to get their attention. Was just a major fail by our coaches and players alike to not be more aware of the situation and someone do something to get the refs attention and stop the play before KU was able to go down court and hit a 3. I also wonder had that happened in Hilton and not at KU if the refs would have still left the 3 on the board because I bet the fans would have been throwing things on the court at that point and going nuts.

We've been screwed so many times during KU games for once I would just love to have the favor returned and KU lose on some bogus mistake or no-call.

 

[dafarmer]

Let’s try this Saturday, I am sure they won’t take the points off the scoreboard!

 

[Cycsk]

But you guys are shooting the messenger here. I'm just telling you what I believe happened (as supported by this chart) and what the rule is.

Not attacking you. Just interacting with you as someone being active in this thread and advocating a different opinion.

Perhaps the situation doesn't fit the list of "correctable errors," but is that list inclusive of all possibilities or just a list of some possibilities? Who would have ever thought to put a mind-baffling situation like this on a list?

I still can't get past how easy and obvious it could have been to remedy this situation. Instead, the refs did something that only "makes sense" when you recognize that it happened in the Phog.

 

[CYEATHAWK]

I still blame Wayne Morgan for not doing something to stop the game play once Homan missed that first free throw. I could only imagine that Eustachy probably would have ran out onto the court and grabbed a ref or something to get their attention. Was just a major fail by our coaches and players alike to not be more aware of the situation and someone do something to get the refs attention and stop the play before KU was able to go down court and hit a 3. I also wonder had that happened in Hilton and not at KU if the refs would have still left the 3 on the board because I bet the fans would have been throwing things on the court at that point and going nuts.

We've been screwed so many times during KU games for once I would just love to have the favor returned and KU lose on some bogus mistake or no-call.

Wayne Morgan has been accused of doing a lot of things.......but somehow being at fault for what happened in Lawrence that day CANNOT be one of them!

Because I can see it now......he runs onto the court and grabs an official. Gets T'd up just for that.......then gets another for protesting that. Kansas gets 4 free throws and the ball and the reason for everything is forgot because of the lunatic Iowa State coach.

Then, with this site's sole purpose of getting rid of "Rucker Park" Wayne......that would have just given those who started this more ammunition as to why we need someone with more integrity.

And exhibit A to why losing with integrity is much better than winning the Rucker Park way.

 

[qwerty]

I still blame Wayne Morgan for not doing something to stop the game play once Homan missed that first free throw. I could only imagine that Eustachy probably would have ran out onto the court and grabbed a ref or something to get their attention. Was just a major fail by our coaches and players alike to not be more aware of the situation and someone do something to get the refs attention and stop the play before KU was able to go down court and hit a 3. I also wonder had that happened in Hilton and not at KU if the refs would have still left the 3 on the board because I bet the fans would have been throwing things on the court at that point and going nuts.

We've been screwed so many times during KU games for once I would just love to have the favor returned and KU lose on some bogus mistake or no-call.

Larry would have Woody Hayes the KU player

 

[davegilbertson]

I still blame Wayne Morgan for not doing something to stop the game play once Homan missed that first free throw. I could only imagine that Eustachy probably would have ran out onto the court and grabbed a ref or something to get their attention. Was just a major fail by our coaches and players alike to not be more aware of the situation and someone do something to get the refs attention and stop the play before KU was able to go down court and hit a 3. I also wonder had that happened in Hilton and not at KU if the refs would have still left the 3 on the board because I bet the fans would have been throwing things on the court at that point and going nuts.

We've been screwed so many times during KU games for once I would just love to have the favor returned and KU lose on some bogus mistake or no-call.

I have nothing to support it, but feel convinced that gets corrected to the spirit of the play ie no 3pt make in Hilton

 

[Yellow Snow]

Lots of comments.

First, consider the source. Big surprise that a Lawrence newspaper article leans toward the KU perspective.

Second, the article simply goes to the "you can't take points off the board" argument. That seems ridiculous. Surely there are dozens of examples where a scorer made a mistake (missing a free throw, giving 2 points instead of a 3) which were spotted and fixed even if play had resumed.

Third, @ruxCYtable puts a lot of emphasis on the possibility that the ref says "one-and-one." However, it is not clear at all that he does. Seems odd that the Lawrence article doesn't even suggest that possibility.

Fourth, in the list @ruxCYtable gives above, why wouldn't this be considered a correctible error of "erroneously counting or canceling a score?"

The refs properly stopped the game, but only fixed half of what they did wrong (gave Homan the second free throw, but did not away the three-point shot).

It continues to be the most blatant example of 5-on-8 against KU . . . and that is saying something.

What would have happened had the mistake not been noticed for 8 minutes of game time? All of that time "erased" and start over with the freethrow? No.

That is why the three stood. Anything that happened between when the non-correctable mistake was made and when it was caught would have stood, no matter how long the game played on before stoppage. That is the reason.

 

[Cycsk]

What would have happened had the mistake not been noticed for 8 minutes of game time? All of that time "erased" and start over with the freethrow? No.

That is why the three stood. Anything that happened between when the non-correctable mistake was made and when it was caught would have stood, no matter how long the game played on before stoppage. That is the reason.

Your hypothetical is irrelevant. In this case, the discovery happened in a manner in which the solution could be adjacent to the error. Not unlike when the ref blows the whistle to stop play in order to fix the shot clock. It wouldn't matter if someone fired a full court shot to the other basket and made it before the refs blew the whistle. They would not count the basket, but reset the shot clock, and they inbounds the ball again.

 

[GoldCy]

To add another element, what happened after the second FT; I don't remember. Since KU already ran a play after a missed FT and scored, shouldn't it have been ISU ball out of bounds under ku basket. How can 2 plays be allowed by ku during one ft sequence.

 

[4evertrue]

Ran across this gem.......another apology letter from the Big 12......thanks for nothing......go cyclones. Beat the beakers!!!!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.kusports.com/news/2004/feb/26/big_12_refs/%3Ftemplates%3Dmobile&ved=2ahUKEwjKw-W62Mb8AhWpkIkEHSTzAb4QFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1I6vnb6NlUbUqEtBan6zjp

 

[qwerty]

What would have happened had the mistake not been noticed for 8 minutes of game time? All of that time "erased" and start over with the freethrow? No.

It is only correctable until the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

 

[qwerty]

To add another element, what happened after the second FT; I don't remember. Since KU already ran a play after a missed FT and scored, shouldn't it have been ISU ball out of bounds under ku basket. How can 2 plays be allowed by ku during one ft sequence.

@4evertrue apology letter link said ISU was awarded the ball OOB after the 2nd FT attempt . . . since KU already had their possession (albeit without ISU playing defense).

 

[NWICY]

Several years ago i was a hs ref in basketball and a number of sports.....i have always wondered since the phantom 3 at ku i believe in 2004....isnt the ball automatically dead following the miss of the first free throw when shooting a two shot foul? Or in the case of a three shot foul after a miss on the first two shots?....in the attached article selfie claims the officials made the right call.....i beg to differ....just because some team erroneously rebounds it and dribbles it down court makes the ball a live ball or keeps it alive? That makes no sense....anyway any officating gurus on dead ball and live ball free throw administration?....has the rule changed since 2004 if this was indeed "the right call"..... my feeling at the time was the ball was a dead ball when he missed the front end of the two shot foul and the giddens 3 should have been wiped out and homan back at the ft line for the second free throw after resetting the clock back to the time on the clock when homan shot the first throw.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/feb/22/cyclones_lament_botched/&ved=2ahUKEwim5d7H6cP8AhU6g4kEHU77DPcQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3hTYoImO-AiwtmjWRsE2pD

Only if you are Kansas.

 

[NWICY]

Lol at all the people that justify cheating Kansas. That said beat them today!

 

[Cycsk]

Ran across this gem.......another apology letter from the Big 12......thanks for nothing......go cyclones. Beat the beakers!!!!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.kusports.com/news/2004/feb/26/big_12_refs/%3Ftemplates%3Dmobile&ved=2ahUKEwjKw-W62Mb8AhWpkIkEHSTzAb4QFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1I6vnb6NlUbUqEtBan6zjp

Very interesting to read this letter from the Big 12 official's office.

I still call BS. Suppose the game ended with ISU making a shot just after the final buzzer that won the game. The ref closest to the scorer thinks it was in time so he signals to the scorer to count the points and the points are put on the board.. But the other two refs rush in to overrule him. They decide that the basket was indeed after the buzzer so it shouldn't count. Can you take the points off the board? I would expect so.

Or lessen the stakes. The same scenario takes place with a routine 24 second clock hitting 0 before the shot. The ref closest to the scorer thinks it was in time, so the score is put on the board. However, the other two rush in and they agree that the shot was after the buzzer. Surely they will take the points off the board.

In the case of the Phantom 3, it would have been so easy and obvious to take the points away, add a few seconds back on the clock, let Homan take his second free throw, and resume the game accordingly. To argue for legitimacy of not fixing a correctable mistake is just not compelling to me.

The entire time between Homan's free throws was a "dead ball." It might have been more difficult if they hadn't caught the mistake and the game had gone on. But it didn't. They stopped the game and went back to a dead ball situation to seek a remedy. They just made only part of the correction. I still fail to see why couldn't make the entire correction.

The only argument seems to be that this situation wasn't on the list of things that could be corrected. But who would even think to put something as stupid as this on a list. If the list is viewed as illustrative, but not exhaustive, then the refs are freed to use their own common sense and make the easy and obvious correction.

 

[SEIOWA CLONE]

The blame for this whole mess was on the ref that called the foul, not the players and least of all Morgan for not running on the floor to stop it.
The whole mechanics of being the official here that called the foul says that. When a foul is called on the floor, the ref that called the foul, walks over to the scorers and tells or signals them the players number and whether it is a one and one or two or three free throws. The other two refs, during this time, administer the actual shooting of the free throws.

The ref that calls the foul is generally out front, and not under the basket unless they have rotated for some reason. It was his responsibility to blow his whistle immediately and stop play after the first shot was missed. The other officials also know how many free throws are being shot, as they tell the players at the line, and say "let the first one lay" or something of that effect.

Overall just a horrible job by the officials in not stopping the play after the first FT was missed, and then to allow KU to score off of it, and then allowing ISU to shoot another FT just make it worse. Either take the points off the board, or administer one FT for ISU and then award ISU the basketball after the other FT.