Please Stop with "should've run on 2nd"

[Yellow Snow]

There's really no question. You always run twice and force the TO's. That's a basic rule in coaching. Now you can roll the dice sometimes, but that in itself is telling. Not running in that situation is risky at best, and stupid at normalcy.

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

 

[Gossamer]

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

I disagree with you 100%...but I do have a point of clarification. I am not inclined to believe that running the ball would have won the game. I am inclined to believe that passing was the worst of options, given the situation.

In the end, I guess the guys who are paid millions get paid to decide...but I would bet you my next paycheck that won't ever happen again under CMC, given similar circumstances.

 

[cydline2cydline]

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

Agree with this. If they run the ball and Kstate still pulls off the win, then the narrative is "Why did they play so conservative down the stretch?" "They have one of the worst pass defenses in the Big12!"

Coaches can't win these types of arguments. If you win, you made the right call. If you lose, you made the wrong one.

 

[Yellow Snow]

I disagree with you 100%...but I do have a point of clarification. I am not inclined to believe that running the ball would have won the game. I am inclined to believe that passing was the worst of options, given the situation.

In the end, I guess the guys who are paid millions get paid to decide...but I would bet you my next paycheck that won't ever happen again under CMC, given similar circumstances.

You may very well be correct. I'm just saying that the plays that were called ended up working if not for a picked up flag. That is all. I'm not calling people that think we should have run in that situation "stupid" or anything.

I would have run it if it were my call, but that doesn't change the fact that the plays that were called worked. We are busting a guys nuts (Manning) over a freak thing. It's not his fault. That is my point I guess.

 

[3TrueFans]

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

In one of the infinite alternate timelines where the flag wasn't picked up the play calling did work, unfortunately not in the one we're living in.

 

[RonBurgundy]

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

Yea, well, the thread title is running on 2nd down, so please read. And no, the pass play on 2nd down did not work. At all.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the pass on 3rd down. In fact, we pretty much put ourselves in that hole with the stupid call on 2nd down.

Croney averaged 4.8 ypc on the day. He had already carried for 18 yards (4 carries) on the last drive. KSU was not stopping him.

It was a dumb call not to run Croney again on 2nd down. CMC appeared to agree. Why do fans continue to defend that piece of stupidity when even the head coach seemed upset?

 

[statsaholic]

My my, how easy it is to be a keyboard quarterback in retrospect... Regardless, we should have had the possession extended, and that was taken away, not by our offense's error, but by an outstandingly poor officiating. I say outstandingly poor officiating, particularly because a flag was thrown, then picked up for no reason I can see, which is far worse of an indictment then had no flag been thrown on an obvious defensive PI. It is easy to argue the pass play on 2nd was bad because it didnt work. I get all our logic as brilliant coaching minds that a rush was the only reasonable option, but to boil it down to that one play is (my opinion) misguided. Had we completed that pass for 1st, or had we otherwise won the game, who would there be ******** on here? The game is over, we lost (my opinion, in a travesty) and now we go on to the bowl game.

 

[cyclones500]

Typically, I'm a proponent of running the ball and forcing timeouts in that situation. The other side of the coin, you can complete a pass for a first down in a probable-run situation and the game is over. But you have to make at least a "safe" throw past the sticks or take a big downfield shot that risks INT but it's "as good as a punt" (but I'd do that on 3rd down only).

But there was a what-if in the 3Q: If ISU kicked the extra point instead of going for 2 at 12-7, the game could've gone to OT at 20-20 (all other details being the same). We could second-guess that all week long, too.

 

[clonebb]

We should’ve run the ball on second down.

 

[3TrueFans]

But there was a what-if in the 3Q: If ISU kicked the extra point instead of going for 2 at 12-7, the game could've gone to OT at 20-20 (all other details being the same). We could second-guess that all week long, too.

One more point wouldn't have done us any good, it would just force KSU to kick the extra point rather than kneeling after they scored.

 

[Gossamer]

My my, how easy it is to be a keyboard quarterback in retrospect... Regardless, we should have had the possession extended, and that was taken away, not by our offense's error, but by an outstandingly poor officiating. I say outstandingly poor officiating, particularly because a flag was thrown, then picked up for no reason I can see, which is far worse of an indictment then had no flag been thrown on an obvious defensive PI. It is easy to argue the pass play on 2nd was bad because it didnt work. I get all our logic as brilliant coaching minds that a rush was the only reasonable option, but to boil it down to that one play is (my opinion) misguided. Had we completed that pass for 1st, or had we otherwise won the game, who would there be ******** on here? The game is over, we lost (my opinion, in a travesty) and now we go on to the bowl game.

You are conflating the outcome of the play/game with the decision to pass vs run...that's not what many people are saying.

Throwing the ball on second down was NOT the correct play call, regardless of the outcome of that particular play or game. That is what people are trying to state...and if what we can surmise is correct, CMC felt similarly.

Also, your tone is that of Vizzini...annoying.

 

[3TrueFans]

My my, how easy it is to be a keyboard quarterback in retrospect... Regardless, we should have had the possession extended, and that was taken away, not by our offense's error, but by an outstandingly poor officiating. I say outstandingly poor officiating, particularly because a flag was thrown, then picked up for no reason I can see, which is far worse of an indictment then had no flag been thrown on an obvious defensive PI. It is easy to argue the pass play on 2nd was bad because it didnt work. I get all our logic as brilliant coaching minds that a rush was the only reasonable option, but to boil it down to that one play is (my opinion) misguided. Had we completed that pass for 1st, or had we otherwise won the game, who would there be ******** on here? The game is over, we lost (my opinion, in a travesty) and now we go on to the bowl game.

The 3rd down play call was more or less forced because of the play call on 2nd down. For me the problem with the 2nd down play isn't that we threw the ball but that we ran a play where Kempt was always throwing to one receiver who was tightly covered.

 

[cyclones500]

One more point wouldn't have done us any good, it would just force KSU to kick the extra point rather than kneeling after they scored.

Ah, you're correct. I didn't do the math properly.

 

[jbhtexas]

Whether you think it was stupid or not is irrelevant. The play calling worked.

The fact that the official picked up an obvious PI flag is not Manning's fault. Lemme ask you this....

How would you feel if that flag wasn't picked up? Then the narrative on here is how Manning had balls of steel and we are out to WIN games and not play to try and not lose.

You know I'm right... The narrative and all of the people on this board who are CERTAIN that running the ball would have won the game is nutzo. We won the game with the plays that were called.

Was it PI or not?

I think it was PI, but what I think didn't matter.

If the PI call had stood, it would have been a very, very questionable play calling sequence that just happened to work out.

ISU was not in a situation of desperation at that point. ISU had the lead and time on their side. They didn't have to force a play and and hope for an official to rule in their favor. Since the second half of the TCU game, it has seemed pretty clear that ISU was not getting PI calls. There was just no reason to risk passing plays, and in particular throwing to a covered receiver, in that situation when there were much better strategic options. You don't give other people unnecessary control over the situation, which is what happens when you throw to a covered receiver and hope to get a call from an official (as obvious as that call may seem to you).

IMO, the only way you can conclude that the the pass play "worked" in that particular situation, is if the pass was on target to a wide open receiver. If you want to pass in that situation, and if there are no open receivers, the QB has to eat the ball, or tuck and try to pick up a couple of yards and get down before contact...keep the clock running.

Also, not sure if it was mentioned in this thread or one of the others (can't keep track), no time outs and a waning game clock really limit passes to the middle of the field. That is a big advantage for the defense playing against an offense that has to takes risks to cover a long field.

 

[snowcraig2.0]

Throwing the ball there was undoubtedly a mistake.

However, they made a great play call on 3rd down getting Lazard one on one and had that taken from them by dirty officiating.

 

[Cyclone1985]

I think everyone is missing the big picture. Our defense allowed them to go 80 yards in less than two minutes -- to a team that cant throw the ball, a team that had roughly 100 total yards before the last series, and a team that looked lost on offense all day.

We get one incompletion or stop one of the long pass plays and its a totally different story. We dropped 7 or 8 guys every play and KState had guys running wide open.

And for Peavy to be the one to make a bonehead mistake in man coverage to end the game is karma.

 

[jbhtexas]

I think everyone is missing the big picture. Our defense allowed them to go 80 yards in less than two minutes -- to a team that cant throw the ball, a team that had roughly 100 total yards before the last series, and a team that looked lost on offense all day.

We get one incompletion or stop one of the long pass plays and its a totally different story. We dropped 7 or 8 guys every play and KState had guys running wide open.

And for Peavy to be the one to make a bonehead mistake in man coverage to end the game is karma.

There is another thread underway for that discussion.

https://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/threads/the-last-drive-yesterday.233925/#post-5939044

 

[herbicide]

I think everyone is missing the big picture. Our defense allowed them to go 80 yards in less than two minutes -- to a team that cant throw the ball, a team that had roughly 100 total yards before the last series, and a team that looked lost on offense all day.

We get one incompletion or stop one of the long pass plays and its a totally different story. We dropped 7 or 8 guys every play and KState had guys running wide open.

And for Peavy to be the one to make a bonehead mistake in man coverage to end the game is karma.

This, had Peavy stayed on his man, game over.

 

[3TrueFans]

This, had Peavy stayed on his man, game over.

Unfortunately true, Spears and KCM had any possible QB run to the pylon covered no doubt.

 

[Montgomery-Magic]

You can't just assume everything would play out the same way though, but what it would do is give KSU less time and no timeouts to go 80 yards or whatever.

yes, i am overstating and assuming all things being equal. in all all likelihood we win the ballgame had we kept it on the ground. I don't understand why people don't concede this.
Announcers did. Reporters. MC I think did. Not to mention Croney was moving the ball!