The McDermott "System"

[Cyfan13]

Cyclone#1: You made some REALLY good points!

Kentkel: Mac has started to let them run a little more, which is great. But to say they weren't before because of the injuries, that I don't really believe. Mac had the same three guys plus Mike T on the team last year and they still didn't run the court.

 

[jferg]

I don't think Mac's system is that difficult for players to understand and pick up. I think the system is built around certain types of players that Mac just doesn't have right now.
He needs a point guard that can run the show and limit turnovers; a couple guards that can create their own shot, hit threes and can get to the rim; and a couple solid big guys to take some pressure off of those guards.
Finally, all of these guys must be able to play good half-court defense. Mac's system isn't going to score 100 points every night, so the defense has to be able to lock people down.

Look at some of the guys Mac had at UNI. Maybe not the most athletic or best players, but they fit his style of ball:
PG: Chris Foster, McKowen
SG: Ben Jacobson, Erik Crawford, John Little
Bigs: David Gruber, Matt Schneiderman, Grant Stout, Eric Coleman

 

[MJAnderson]

No one is really answering my ultimate question...how long should we expect it to take a player to learn this system?

I do believe that McDermott can coach (I saw him beat a Final Four bound team at LSU with his last UNI team) and I have been pleasantly surprised with his recruiting (W. Johnson and Brackins).

But this constant talk of needing to "learn the system" does concern me. The longest you will likely have any player (Jess Settles not withstanding) is 4 years (5 with a redshirt). The blunt reality of major CBB today is that you are nearly certain to have unexpected player turnover (this happens at nearly every school with increasing regularity). Injuries are another reality that is hard to escape. If the typical kid takes two years to learn the system and he is around for four then you really only get them for two years. Additionally, I hope we will also be recruiting some players that have the talent to go NBA after year 1, 2, or 3...I doubt there was much talk last year at Ohio State about Oden learning the system or at Texas about Durant learning the system. Just as I doubt you hear this much with Gordon at Indiana, Beasley at K-State, or Mayo at USC. They all know they need to win now with those guys because they are one and done.

I guess what I am concerned about is that I don't know that the major CBB environment is conducive to the system oriented approach today. To really compete you generally need at least one or two guys that have legitimate NBA potential (typically these guys are looking to leave early). If we recruit a bunch of "system players" that we know will be around for sure for 4 or 5 years (which is impossible to know for sure...witness Vette) then I'm not certain we will have the requisite talent and athleticism to truly compete at the major college level.

I just hope while we continue to wait for next year that at some point it actually comes!

I don't think that there is a set time for a team to learn the system but I would think it would take the players at least a full year to get comfortable with it. I know that McDermott has been there for almost two years but I think that with all of the attrition last year, players switching positions, and injuries, this year is almost like starting over again. I think as we get a base of players that learn the system it will be easier for new recruits to learn because they will be able to learn from the coaches and the experienced players.

 

[ISUonthemove]

Both years have been completely different line ups in the backcourt. So he has to teach it again. Give him a break.

 

[larry]

[quote="cyclone#1, post: 307133"]No one is really answering my ultimate question...how long should we expect it to take a player to learn this system?

But this constant talk of needing to "learn the system" does concern me.  The longest you will likely have any player (Jess Settles not withstanding) is 4 years (5 with a redshirt).  The blunt reality of major CBB today is that you are nearly certain to have unexpected player turnover (this happens at nearly every school with increasing regularity).  Injuries are another reality that is hard to escape.  If the typical kid takes two years to learn the system and he is around for four then you really only get them for two years.  Additionally, I hope we will also be recruiting some players that have the talent to go NBA after year 1, 2, or 3...I doubt there was much talk last year at Ohio State about Oden learning the system or at Texas about Durant learning the system.  Just as I doubt you hear this much with Gordon at Indiana, Beasley at K-State, or Mayo at USC.  They all know they need to win now with those guys because they are one and done.

I'll say it takes 1-2 years. Let me qualify. Your ideal situation(or something like it), is 3-5 recruits every year with 6-9 nine guys returning in the system. Realistically, your 6-9 returners are providing the bulk of playing time and offense, thus allowing your new recruits time to adjust to a higher level of play, adjust to college and making grades, adjust to not being the best player on the team, and learn the system. If you can get major contributions from a freshman, he's either very good or your returners aren't good enough or both.

So, applied to ISU's current situation, McDermott comes in and everybody's new--12 guys all new to the system--you're going to have mixed results. Year 2, 8-9 new guys, 3-4 returning players(many who have had injury issues). Again, so far, there have been mixed results.

Year 3 we'll have 6-8 people returning in the system, and not so many "new to the system" players.(hopefully!) This may result in a better product, or we may be throwing some "new" players into the mix right away and have another wait and see year.

In summary, to answer your question, again, I'll say 1-2 years to learn system(though maybe less), BUT it takes 3-4 years for a system to function properly.

Please, don't bother crucifying me about the numbers I used--I didn't have time to do the research--I'm at work, for crying out loud!

 

[mt85]

No one is really answering my ultimate question...how long should we expect it to take a player to learn this system?

I do believe that McDermott can coach (I saw him beat a Final Four bound team at LSU with his last UNI team) and I have been pleasantly surprised with his recruiting (W. Johnson and Brackins).

But this constant talk of needing to "learn the system" does concern me. The longest you will likely have any player (Jess Settles not withstanding) is 4 years (5 with a redshirt). The blunt reality of major CBB today is that you are nearly certain to have unexpected player turnover (this happens at nearly every school with increasing regularity). Injuries are another reality that is hard to escape. If the typical kid takes two years to learn the system and he is around for four then you really only get them for two years. Additionally, I hope we will also be recruiting some players that have the talent to go NBA after year 1, 2, or 3...I doubt there was much talk last year at Ohio State about Oden learning the system or at Texas about Durant learning the system. Just as I doubt you hear this much with Gordon at Indiana, Beasley at K-State, or Mayo at USC. They all know they need to win now with those guys because they are one and done.

I guess what I am concerned about is that I don't know that the major CBB environment is conducive to the system oriented approach today. To really compete you generally need at least one or two guys that have legitimate NBA potential (typically these guys are looking to leave early). If we recruit a bunch of "system players" that we know will be around for sure for 4 or 5 years (which is impossible to know for sure...witness Vette) then I'm not certain we will have the requisite talent and athleticism to truly compete at the major college level.

I just hope while we continue to wait for next year that at some point it actually comes!

The system is so complicated it takes five years to grasp it. (sarcasm)

I'm pretty sure that's what you want to hear, but the truth is this isn't rocket science. They aren't trying to split the atom.

The fact is very few division one teams have success with first year point guards, but I know that isn't what you want to believe.

 

[Cydkar]

Mike T. couldn't run down the court without throwing the ball into the crowd. Running doesn't count if the ball isn't in your possession.

 

[kentkel]

Kentkel: Mac has started to let them run a little more, which is great. But to say they weren't before because of the injuries, that I don't really believe. Mac had the same three guys plus Mike T on the team last year and they still didn't run the court.

Cyfan13,

Sorry if I implied that our team was not trying to "run" prior to the injuries. I'm not trying to skew what Mac said. I think the gist of what he was saying in the interview, is that the team has been limited in their opportunities to run - and injuries to key players have had an effect on that part of the game. My main point was to address those fans who have voiced concern or criticism of Mac for not fully utilizing our most athletic players (like #13 & #4) in an up-tempo style. I fully believe Coach Mac to be one who will & does utilize the strengths of our players. And I believe that he has full confidence that our players can get transition baskets.
--PEACE!!

 

[Cyfan13]

Let me first preface by saying this is my opinion, not Rahshon's.

I think that Mac's problem is that he tries to do too much on offense. He is constantly trying to control everything instead of just letting the guys play basketball. I'm not saying he just needs to let them loose and play street ball, but i'm saying he needs to let go of the reigns a little. Watch him during a game. He's constantly talking to them in the middle of plays, literally pointing to the very spot on the court where he wants them to be and where he wants them to go (which obviously is also letting the other team know what their doing). The players are so busy paying attention to him they aren't paying attention to the game!

Mac's system consists of over 150 different variations of plays, but somehow they still end up running the shot clock down to 5. That's just too much for the guys to learn. That's why half the time they all look confused and don't know who to screen or where to go. They need to simplify the offense some and just let the guys play.

 

[cyclonenum1]

I don't think Mac's system is that difficult for players to understand and pick up. I think the system is built around certain types of players that Mac just doesn't have right now.
He needs a point guard that can run the show and limit turnovers; a couple guards that can create their own shot, hit threes and can get to the rim; and a couple solid big guys to take some pressure off of those guards.
Finally, all of these guys must be able to play good half-court defense. Mac's system isn't going to score 100 points every night, so the defense has to be able to lock people down.

Look at some of the guys Mac had at UNI. Maybe not the most athletic or best players, but they fit his style of ball:
PG: Chris Foster, McKowen
SG: Ben Jacobson, Erik Crawford, John Little
Bigs: David Gruber, Matt Schneiderman, Grant Stout, Eric Coleman

He certainly had success at UNI but UNI is a mid-major BB school in a mid-major conference. We are a major BB school playing in a major BB conference. I'm not certain you can defacto say that if the system works at UNI it will work at ISU. Just my opinion.

 

[CyRide3]

Let me first preface by saying this is my opinion, not Rahshon's.

I think that Mac's problem is that he tries to do too much on offense. He is constantly trying to control everything instead of just letting the guys play basketball. I'm not saying he just needs to let them loose and play street ball, but i'm saying he needs to let go of the reigns a little. Watch him during a game. He's constantly talking to them in the middle of plays, literally pointing to the very spot on the court where he wants them to be and where he wants them to go (which obviously is also letting the other team know what their doing). The players are so busy paying attention to him they aren't paying attention to the game!

Mac's system consists of over 150 different variations of plays, but somehow they still end up running the shot clock down to 5. That's just too much for the guys to learn. That's why half the time they all look confused and don't know who to screen or where to go. They need to simplify the offense some and just let the guys play.

I agree- it's too scripted and they look confused if the play is not executed properly.

 

[Cydar]

All I know is that I have faith in the coach as well as his system. I'm not sure if people remember that his UNI team gave Georgia Tech all they could handle in the 2004 NCAA tournament and Georgia Tech ended up going to the Final Four that year.

 

[CyRide3]

In time I also have faith that his system will work, but as a fan you also want to see them look comfortable playing basketball from time to time.

 

[Ficklone02]

Let me first preface by saying this is my opinion, not Rahshon's.

I think that Mac's problem is that he tries to do too much on offense. He is constantly trying to control everything instead of just letting the guys play basketball. I'm not saying he just needs to let them loose and play street ball, but i'm saying he needs to let go of the reigns a little. Watch him during a game. He's constantly talking to them in the middle of plays, literally pointing to the very spot on the court where he wants them to be and where he wants them to go (which obviously is also letting the other team know what their doing). The players are so busy paying attention to him they aren't paying attention to the game!

Mac's system consists of over 150 different variations of plays, but somehow they still end up running the shot clock down to 5. That's just too much for the guys to learn. That's why half the time they all look confused and don't know who to screen or where to go. They need to simplify the offense some and just let the guys play.

These are my thoughts also.

I think we would annihalate some of these non-conferences foes if he just let them play.

 

[cyclonenum1]

The system is so complicated it takes five years to grasp it. (sarcasm)

I'm pretty sure that's what you want to hear, but the truth is this isn't rocket science. They aren't trying to split the atom.

The fact is very few division one teams have success with first year point guards, but I know that isn't what you want to believe.

Personally, I don't want to hear that it takes a kid 1, 2, or 3 years to learn the system. Frankly, as I have stated before, I happen to believe in the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) approach...the simplest basketball play (the pick and roll) is virtually unstoppable if executed properly. And actually, if you look around, you see quite a few first year point guards making a positive impact in major college BB over the past few years...DJ Augustin, Mike Conley, Ryan Francis, Corey Fisher, Tajuan Porter, Edgar Sosa, Jonny Flynn, OJ Mayo, Jerryd Bayless, Ty Lawson, Derrick Rose, etc. I don't really care about all DI teams...there are over 330 of them...I care about the pool we are swimming in...major college BB.

 

[Ficklone02]

Cyclone #1...my opinion is a player should be able to learn a coaches system within a year, or it is not a viable system. I get the idea that ours takes longer, which worries me. If we want to be a really good program, we need good recruits......and we may not be in the consideration for future top-notch recruits because of this system. If I'm a really good recruit and I think I may be ready for the pros after say two years, do you really think I'm interested in spending over half my time at school just learning a system? I really don't think so.

 

[Doc]

When you're talking offensive basketball systems, I believe they generally fall somewhere between controlled on one end of the spectrum, and freelance on the other end of the spectrum. McDermott's probably falls way on the controlled end.

I personally don't think there should be a question as to which side of the spectrum our players would fit into -- it's rather of matter of exactly how controlled the system needs to be to work the best. The only player we have that would really benefit from a freelance system would be DG. Bigs like Hubalek or Brackins generally don't benefit from a freelance system because they just don't get the ball where and when they need it. Clark, while he scored more 2 years ago, has been more efficient this year. Plus we've had less possessions per game this year, so a PPG comparison from 2 years ago is a little deceiving. I don't have data to back this up, but it appears to me that he doesn't get to hit the boards as often as he did 2 years ago.

In order for a freelance system to function well, I think you need guards who can penetrate and create, and that is not Wesley (right now) or BP (ever).

 

[dbronco7sc]

As for the orriginal question... last year... it was a "new" system to the fans (and players)...
as far as people referencing a "new" system... I use it for new players... freshmen and transfers need to learn the "new" system and won't have a big impact right away. Mac's "system" is one that is affected by returning players... hence when you hear TV announcers talking about returning starters and such... then there are other "systems" which aren't really systems and more let 'em play style... in which it doesn't matter so much whether or not you're a returning player.

 

[Doc]

I forgot to add this, but I think McDermott's system has worked pretty well this year and think there will be small improvements as the guys gain experience, but not big jumps in overall offensive efficiency due to players knowing the system better.

We have more room for improvement in the "making 3 pointers" department compared to the "knowing the system" department. Also offensive rebounding a little better would be nice.

 

[cyclonenum1]

Let me first preface by saying this is my opinion, not Rahshon's.

I think that Mac's problem is that he tries to do too much on offense. He is constantly trying to control everything instead of just letting the guys play basketball. I'm not saying he just needs to let them loose and play street ball, but i'm saying he needs to let go of the reigns a little. Watch him during a game. He's constantly talking to them in the middle of plays, literally pointing to the very spot on the court where he wants them to be and where he wants them to go (which obviously is also letting the other team know what their doing). The players are so busy paying attention to him they aren't paying attention to the game!

Mac's system consists of over 150 different variations of plays, but somehow they still end up running the shot clock down to 5. That's just too much for the guys to learn. That's why half the time they all look confused and don't know who to screen or where to go. They need to simplify the offense some and just let the guys play.

I think a lot of coaches have a tendency towards over-coaching. Heck, if you remember in Hoosiers, Coach Norman Dale was actually going to use Jimmy Chitwood as a decoy when he ran the picket fence at the end of the State Championship game. Fortunately, he acquiesced to the team and did the simple thing in running the play for his best player. The rest is, as they say, history...Hickory 42 - South Bend Central 40!!