toughness

State43

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Last year at this time ISU had just gotten stomped by West Virginia and people were clammoring for a leader and lack of toughness. Just a reminder
Exactly
Not to mention the countless close calls to terrible teams that were not even in the NCAA tourney.
 

vortex

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Disagree completely. We have good talent, but we DON"T HAVE TALENT GALORE. And thats not a knock on any of our players. Love our team. But, we don't have more talent than the other top 5 big 12 teams. I about puked when a fan posted that our second team could make the NCAA's after an early season dominating win. This is the Big12 and these players are good. Mason and Woodard nuetralized our point guard. Thomas made our post offense look avg. Disagree that these losses are all about toughness. What we do have are weaknesses, and we don't have the "depth" of players that can DEFEND "good big12 teams" for 40 minutes anyways. Effort was there, but the talent to guard everyone one- on- one is not. Versatile team, but not as much quality depth as people think, imo. If tonight didn't prove we have no choice but to double down low to stay with "good" post players, nothing else will. Obviously, OU is going to kill you on the 3's if you do however. We'll have to play darn well to get them in Hilton. Hopefully a guy avergaging 3.9 pts a game (Booker) doesn't come off the bench again and go 4-6 from three. Having said that, its no time to give up or worry. We're a good team....just not as great or as immensely talented as some have suggested.

Agreed, this is a good team not an elite team. Nothing wrong with that, enjoy watching them and have realistic expectations.
 

chuckd4735

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Last year at this time ISU had just gotten stomped by West Virginia and people were clammoring for a leader and lack of toughness. Just a reminder

Disagree completely. WVU was ISU's really only bad game last year. ISU was competitive in each of their road loses last year. The WVU game was an incredibly quick turn around after the Ejim game. Most of us chalked it up to a horrible game on short turn around. This year, ISU is getting into large deficits on the road, and the team folds. Much different then last year.
 

Jacktronic

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I think a lot of message board posters lack mental toughness as well, especially when melting down after losing to a very good ranked team on their court after that previously mentioned ranked team played very well. But that's none of my business.

I just wanted to say I really like your avatar. It made me laugh during an otherwise ****** night.
 

SeventhSon

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I think it starts with our coach.

i think most of us realize that Fred is not the world's greatest motivator. I suspect the heart condition has at least something to do with that. It really shows itself as a problem on the road. This is nothing new and anybody who hasn't noticed this yet has not been paying attention or doesn't want to admit it.

I don't agree with the TO criticism. If it is an issue, it isn't a big issue.

Team defense is not great but never really has been. Even last year's team was decidedly mediocre. In tonight's game, I think putting Edozie in for the middle of the second half would've been a better move than what they ended up doing (which seemed to be basically nothing interesting).

The biggest problem with this team is heart. They got down 6 points early in the second half and you could see the shoulders start to slump, Georges gets that tell-tale glassy look in his eye, and suddenly everybody is just standing around on the perimeter waiting for a chance to launch a three. Basketball is an emotional game -- if you can get the upper hand emotionally, you can beat _anybody_. Fred knows this which is why he works so hard on team chemistry, but with this team the chemistry is too elusive and too fragile.

I am not disappointed that they lost but rather _how_ they lost. Fred needs to get them tactically prepared but ultimately, these guys need to take pride in their own game and all too often, they just don't.
 

Clone_12

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This team needs a kick in the *** instead of a pat on the back. No excuse for tonight's focus and effort the last 24 minutes. After 4 "wake-up calls" you wouldn't think we would still need to be questioning focus/effort/urgency. Those are things that can be controlled whether you have Kentucky type talent or Mississippi Valley State talent.
 

allfourcy

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Well, one encouraging thing happened tonight. We didn't get punched in the mouth and get behind by 17 pts. right away like Baylor and Tech. We at least got to the 2nd half. But, again, the game was not within our reach before the last 5 minutes to give us a chance. Not sure Texas, Okie State, or KState will be any better. Hope so.
 

allfourcy

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This team needs a kick in the *** instead of a pat on the back. No excuse for tonight's focus and effort the last 24 minutes. After 4 "wake-up calls" you wouldn't think we would still need to be questioning focus/effort/urgency. Those are things that can be controlled whether you have Kentucky type talent or Mississippi Valley State talent.

I don't know... is it really just about focus and effort? I mean, if that's the case, does that mean all these teams that come into Hilton and leave with a loss.... their reason for the loss is lack of effort and focus that they had when they beat us at their place? Its seems too simple to just narrow it down to that, but you may have a better handle on it than me. Hard to explain.
 

Clone_12

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I don't know... is it really just about focus and effort? I mean, if that's the case, does that mean all these teams that come into Hilton and leave with a loss.... their reason for the loss is lack of effort and focus that they had when they beat us at their place? Its seems too simple to just narrow it down to that, but you may have a better handle on it than me. Hard to explain.

We're more talented than a large majority of teams we play and defeat in Hilton. There is no shame at all in losing in Norman to this Oklahoma team, but the way we did it was dreadful. They outscored us by 28 points in a 20 minute stretch where we consistantly stood and watched while their guys crashed the boards or drove by us for easy shots in the lane. That is focus and effort.
 

fsanford

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Disagree completely. WVU was ISU's really only bad game last year. ISU was competitive in each of their road loses last year. The WVU game was an incredibly quick turn around after the Ejim game. Most of us chalked it up to a horrible game on short turn around. This year, ISU is getting into large deficits on the road, and the team folds. Much different then last year.

... Baylor, Texas, Kansas, KSU were not competitive games.. Baylor slapped ISU around (this year they lose on a late shot and missed a shot at the end). Kansas beats ISU by 11, Texas beats ISU by 10 and it wasn't that close.
Will give you OU was closer last year, but WVU was a huge loss. So off sets.

This year the conference is tougher top to bottom
They have played 1 bottom feeder on the road thus far, and 4 of the top 5 teams in the league on the road already.

Let it play out.
 

DesignerClone

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Disagree completely. We have good talent, but we DON"T HAVE TALENT GALORE. And thats not a knock on any of our players. Love our team. But, we don't have more talent than the other top 5 big 12 teams. I about puked when a fan posted that our second team could make the NCAA's after an early season dominating win. This is the Big12 and these players are good. Mason and Woodard nuetralized our point guard. Thomas made our post offense look avg. Disagree that these losses are all about toughness. What we do have are weaknesses, and we don't have the "depth" of players that can DEFEND "good big12 teams" for 40 minutes anyways. Effort was there, but the talent to guard everyone one- on- one is not. Versatile team, but not as much quality depth as people think, imo. If tonight didn't prove we have no choice but to double down low to stay with "good" post players, nothing else will. Obviously, OU is going to kill you on the 3's if you do however. We'll have to play darn well to get them in Hilton. Hopefully a guy avergaging 3.9 pts a game (Booker) doesn't come off the bench again and go 4-6 from three. Having said that, its no time to give up or worry. We're a good team....just not as great or as immensely talented as some have suggested.

This. Very well articulated my friend. The "depth" of this team has been overstated from the beginning. Depth is only depth if the minutes are meaningful. As allfourcy so aptly wrote, the actual depth of this team lacks the ability to defend on the level required for this conference. When playing at home, this team is really entertaining to watch, but road wins require lock down defense. There was way too much talk of FFours and Conf Championships that offset the reality of this team's weaknesses in many minds and that is really too bad.
 

allfourcy

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We're more talented than a large majority of teams we play and defeat in Hilton. There is no shame at all in losing in Norman to this Oklahoma team, but the way we did it was dreadful. They outscored us by 28 points in a 20 minute stretch where we consistantly stood and watched while their guys crashed the boards or drove by us for easy shots in the lane. That is focus and effort.

Disagree. We may be close or equally talented.... but our top 8 rotation players are not more talented than KU, OU, Baylor, Texas, or even Okie State. Those teams all have good point guards and every team has an enforcer like Dustin. Other than Texas of that group, I would say they have just as good (if not somewhat better) depth at perimeter shooting, too. Some of the 5 teams I mentioned have more players who can "blow by" guys with a good handle. Not dissing our talent, but feel as if we're only "more" talented than the bottom half of the league. Think about it, is Monte "more" talented than Mason, Chery, Taylor, and Woodward? Is Georges "more" talented than Thomas, Ellis, Holmes, Nash... or is he more versatile? He still has to guard them. Is Hogue "more" talented than Spangler, Oubre, Gathers, or Hield (who Dustin had to guard tonight)? Is Naz "more" talented than Cousins, Seldon, Forte, etc.?
Actually, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. Because focus and effort can be corrected or improved easier, imo.
 
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Clone_12

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My point was more on the effort and focus...when you get outscored by 28 in the 20 minute stretch, and the other team is running by you unmolested for bunnies, and everyone stands around watching while the ball is in the air instead of boxing out. That is effort/focus.

Also, we have FAR more firepower than Baylor and Oklahoma State. They play MUCH better defense and rebound better than us however. You could make an argument that Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas are every bit as skilled as us though, if not more.
 
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Spanky

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This team needs a kick in the *** instead of a pat on the back. No excuse for tonight's focus and effort the last 24 minutes. After 4 "wake-up calls" you wouldn't think we would still need to be questioning focus/effort/urgency. Those are things that can be controlled whether you have Kentucky type talent or Mississippi Valley State talent.

Wake up calls? We've beaten the snooze button to a pulp.
 

swarthmoreCY

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Wake up calls? We've beaten the snooze button to a pulp.

Maybe it is we, the fans, that need to wakeup? Look around the Big 12. Talent wise we should not finish in the top-half of the conference, yet Hoiberg has us competing for that in addition to a 4th straight tournament. Don't hate on this team and staff just because you ignored common sense and thought a team that lost its two best players would be better by early February. Wakeup and enjoy this team and support the staff and players.
 
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