Nigel's horrible take on 90's NBA

[deadeyededric]

Nobody would be able to guard Jordan today. Jordan and Pippen would wreak havoc on offense in today's game. If you don't agree, you don't know **** about how basketball works.

By the same token who is guarding someone like LeBron James or Kevin Durant? Guys like Dennis Rodman weren't perimeter defenders. You going to put someone like Luc Longley on Giannis? The 1990s didn't have 7 footers with guard skills. The post players of the 90s aren't going to be able to guard the ones of today 25ft. from the basket.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

Like others said I genuinely like this podcast and Nigel specifically but here are some doozies from the discussion.

Jordan = Jaylen Brown
Jordan's career PER is 27.91, had been #1 forever, recently passed by Joker but if Joker falls off pace a little he'll be back to #1. Jaylen Brown's career PER is 16.7

Jordan = DeMar DeRozan (career PER 19)

Larry Bird = Joe Ingles (careeer PER 12.5)

Yeah Nigel is always saying stuff that make you go, "Whaaaaattt?!" But it makes for a great listen and love the energy. I like the addition to the CF podcast schedule and could actually make the argument that the current pod lineup on CF is the best it's ever been. I really like Title 9, Kickin' It, Let Him Cook, and of course you have the flagship CW/Blum pod twice a week. I could do without Ted Flint in the fall, but otherwise they are all must listen pods for me.

 

[deadeyededric]

Ok, so here's a thought. In the 1990s, you probably didn't get more than one or two regular season games that were televised each week. So is it possible you were, for the most part, only witnessing either playoff games or high level regular season games? I'm guessing there were alot of really ***** regular season basketball games in the 1990s that there are no highlights of and that no one, other than those in attendance, ever saw.

Part of the reason you probably have a glorified vision of 90s basketball is because only the high-level basketball made it to the airwaves.

It's nostalgia.

 

[deadeyededric]

2 words. Hand. Check.

Jordan averaged 32/8/8 before they bumped up to a 27 team league and you were allowed to be mugged on a daily basis. Give the freedom of movement to a guy like him, and it would be over.

Put Lebron in Jordan’s era, and you have another Magic Johnson. Hall of Famer, but not Mike.

LeBron James is astronomically better at going to the rim than Magic Johnson. JFC it's not even close.

 

[HFCS]

LeBron James is astronomically better at going to the rim than Magic Johnson. JFC it's not even close.

I didn’t watch players before 85.

MJ would be best I’ve seen dropped into any era assuming he had same advantages/disadvantages.

LeBron would be #2 in same way.

There’s a drop off before #3 but I think Hakeem, Jokic and Steph at their peaks might be my front runners.

Another doozy from the discussion was that nobody in the 90s could guard Kyrie Irving.

 

[TitanClone]

I didn’t watch players before 85.

MJ would be best I’ve seen dropped into any era assuming he had same advantages/disadvantages.

LeBron would be #2 in same way.

There’s a drop off before #3 but I think Hakeem, Jokic and Steph at their peaks might be my front runners.

Another doozy from the discussion was that nobody in the 90s could guard Kyrie Irving.

Kareem and LeBron are the only players with any sort of argument next to MJ at 1.

 

[HFCS]

Kareem and LeBron are the only players with any sort of argument next to MJ at 1.

Longevity/durability net production vs the player who had the best peak performance and 10ish years isn't just a short period either. Kareem is the first great player where I watched him but not in his prime, it'd be like some 30 year old judging MJ because he watched the Wizards.

The gap between MJ and LBJ isn't as massive as some people think and a lot of those people haven't watched the NBA in 25 years, I'll definitely agree with that. Nothing LeBron does in these final seasons is going to change the debate, but it'll make his career #s even more ridiculous.

 

[Halincandenza]

By the same token who is guarding someone like LeBron James or Kevin Durant? Guys like Dennis Rodman weren't perimeter defenders. You going to put someone like Luc Longley on Giannis? The 1990s didn't have 7 footers with guard skills. The post players of the 90s aren't going to be able to guard the ones of today 25ft. from the basket.

Rodman could guard anyone

 

[Halincandenza]

Like others said I genuinely like this podcast and Nigel specifically but here are some doozies from the discussion.

Jordan = Jaylen Brown
Jordan's career PER is 27.91, had been #1 forever, recently passed by Joker but if Joker falls off pace a little he'll be back to #1. Jaylen Brown's career PER is 16.7

Jordan = DeMar DeRozan (career PER 19)

Larry Bird = Joe Ingles (careeer PER 12.5)

Also suggesting all the 90s players were
Smoking crack

 

[HFCS]

Rodman could guard anyone

He bodied up young quick Shaq and we've yet to see a bigger stronger human than that 30 years later.

I do prefer Nigel's argument that all the 90s players just aren't as good to the argument that "Jordan played with a loaded all star team" because that argument is 100% stupid/false. The last three titles were possibly the best total team defense ever adding Rodman and Harper to Jordan/Pippen. On the defensive side of the ball, those last three years, nobody has been better as a full starting lineup. Center was just 18 fouls of big bodies but that wasn't why they were so good. Jordan's supporting cast was never anything special offensively, there are a lot of pieces he could have played with on offense that would have made them even more unstoppable. Pippen is easily a top 25 defender for me but as years go by I'm not sure I'd even put him top 100 as an offensive player.

 

[Cfinnerty16]

He bodied up young quick Shaq and we've yet to see a bigger stronger human than that 30 years later.

I do prefer Nigel's argument that all the 90s players just aren't as good to the argument that "Jordan played with a loaded all star team" because that argument is 100% stupid/false. The last three titles were possibly the best total team defense ever adding Rodman and Harper to Jordan/Pippen. On the defensive side of the ball, those last three years, nobody has been better as a full starting lineup. Center was just 18 fouls of big bodies but that wasn't why they were so good. Jordan's supporting cast was never anything special offensively, there are a lot of pieces he could have played with on offense that would have made them even more unstoppable. Pippen is easily a top 25 defender for me but as years go by I'm not sure I'd even put him top 100 as an offensive player.

Damn. That is impressive from Rodman

 

[TitanClone]

Longevity/durability net production vs the player who had the best peak performance and 10ish years isn't just a short period either. Kareem is the first great player where I watched him but not in his prime, it'd be like some 30 year old judging MJ because he watched the Wizards.

The gap between MJ and LBJ isn't as massive as some people think and a lot of those people haven't watched the NBA in 25 years, I'll definitely agree with that. Nothing LeBron does in these final seasons is going to change the debate, but it'll make his career #s even more ridiculous.

I'm only 31 but watched a ton of NBA early on and a ton of oldies on ESPN Classic. So definitely don't have the full scope and might make me lean a little more towards LeBron having a legit chance to be considered the GOAT but doubt it will happen unless he goes on a crazy streak and wins 2 or 3 more rings. I just go back to the years in his first stint in Cleveland when he took a terrible team to the finals on his back when he was like 22.

 

[HFCS]

I'm only 31 but watched a ton of NBA early on and a ton of oldies on ESPN Classic. So definitely don't have the full scope and might make me lean a little more towards LeBron having a legit chance to be considered the GOAT but doubt it will happen unless he goes on a crazy streak and wins 2 or 3 more rings. I just go back to the years in his first stint in Cleveland when he took a terrible team to the finals on his back when he was like 22.

For me it was LeBron's years in Miami that make it impossible for him to pass MJ. He had entire playoffs series, and finals where his performance fell off greatly from his typical regular season #s and MJ simply didn't do that, MJ's #s almost always increased (sometimes greatly increased) or at least stayed similar in the playoffs/finals vs his average game.

I'll give LBJ the easy nod as #2 (some older people won't even do that) and he's the most statistically productive player ever, but in terms of "here's the ball go win me a championship" he could play at a high level until he's 50 and those Miami years were all I needed to see. It's a crazy high bar so people get mad about it, nothing I say is a putdown of LBJ, going back to Cleveland and getting them a title there is one of the coolest and most honorable things a player has ever done, not to mention the team he beat and how he beat them.

 

[ISUCyclones2015]

6-0 my ass.

It took him 7 years to get to the finals. Meanwhile LeBron dragged a team as a 21/22 year old to the finals. Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Matthew Dellavedova as the second best player on his team.

Jordan is a fraud and the 90s as a whole is an overrated era.

 

[HFCS]

6-0 my ass.

It took him 7 years to get to the finals. Meanwhile LeBron dragged a team as a 21/22 year old to the finals. Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Matthew Dellavedova as the second best player on his team.

Jordan is a fraud and the 90s as a whole is an overrated era.

Remember that NBA Finals in his prime where Jordan only averaged 16 points, 4 assists and 5 rebounds while losing the series?

Tots agree when you see #s like that.

 

[IASTATE07]

6-0 my ass.

It took him 7 years to get to the finals. Meanwhile LeBron dragged a team as a 21/22 year old to the finals. Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Matthew Dellavedova as the second best player on his team.

Jordan is a fraud and the 90s as a whole is an overrated era.

I know being a jacka$$ is your thing, but you're trying too hard.

 

[NorthCyd]

This thread reminds of this scene so much...

 

[agrabes]

Thanks for sharing. I'd agree with a lot of your conclusions. I'd also add that maybe some of the reason people view that era as so much more physical and defensive is because of the style of offense more than the style of defense. When I clicked to a random spot in the video, the first possession did have physical defense. But it was on a designed Elden Campbell post-up. Elden Campbell shot 46% from two for his career and was under 40% from 3-10 feet away from the basket that season. In today's NBA, he would never be posting up except in the most advantageous spots, because it simply isn't an efficient shot most of the time. So basically, the game may have seemed more physical at times because playing in the post and the lane is going to be physical, but as you said, the spacing pulls out the defense now. There's always more room to operate, plus only the most efficient players are posting up with any regularity.

I think that you allude to it in your own post but this is a weird take. You're essentially saying that the players of that era were bad because they don't train for today's style of play. It doesn't make sense. They did not evaluate the game through the lens of advanced stats and min/max analytics in those days. So of course a guy will take shots that aren't perfectly optimized based on analytics.

In those days, people threw it into the post because it was a higher percentage shot. They didn't analyze things like points per possession, effective field goal percent, etc. If they had, they would have changed their strategy and played like they do today. What you're doing is sort of like saying man people in the 80s must have been complete idiots with no fashion sense based on their hairstyles. Obviously, that's not the case - they did what was popular then. They could just as easily done things the way we do today, but that wasn't how it was done then. Were they better or worse? My guess is that they're all about the same in terms of skill and talent - just trained and coached with different priorities.

 

[ISUCyclones2015]

I know being a jacka$$ is your thing, but you're trying too hard.

You only think I’m a jackass because I expose the truth

 

[Halincandenza]

He bodied up young quick Shaq and we've yet to see a bigger stronger human than that 30 years later.

I do prefer Nigel's argument that all the 90s players just aren't as good to the argument that "Jordan played with a loaded all star team" because that argument is 100% stupid/false. The last three titles were possibly the best total team defense ever adding Rodman and Harper to Jordan/Pippen. On the defensive side of the ball, those last three years, nobody has been better as a full starting lineup. Center was just 18 fouls of big bodies but that wasn't why they were so good. Jordan's supporting cast was never anything special offensively, there are a lot of pieces he could have played with on offense that would have made them even more unstoppable. Pippen is easily a top 25 defender for me but as years go by I'm not sure I'd even put him top 100 as an offensive player.

Yeah the young Bulls champs were more offensive minded but the second three peat was just a ridiculous defensive team.
Yeah Pippen one of the best defenders ever in his prime and could play PG but not a great scorer.