Underage Bar Entry - Ames vs Iowa City

[Broodwich]

Look, I was a college student 10 years ago. I fondly recall the wild parties we had, and talking about the number of kegs we killed at VEISHEA. I know partying and "being social" is revered as a large part of the college experience. Trust me when I say however, while fun that it is hugely overrated in the grand scheme of the total collegiate experience.

Let me just say this for myself and on behalf of the 30+ people I stay in contact with from my undergraduate years at Iowa State: The only thing of enduring value out of the bars and partying are embarassing but very funny stories. They are great for laughs at tailgates, but going to the bar never helped anyone network for a good job or find enduring romance.

I know I felt overwhelmed with the sense of urgency to get in to the bar when I was an undergrad. I got busted with a fake ID. I thought that that was where all of the women were hiding. In actuality they were with their boyfriends. In the end it just left me lighter in the wallet and with a hangover. That is all that you're going to get out of an extra year or two of going to the bar: liver damage, a gut and more student loans to payback.

Go nuts when you are 25 and are making good money. Chicks like guys who make a lot of money.

 

[Cyclone62]

Sorry, but I think that's a big selling point to almost ALL recruits. They care about having a social life and not just going someplace to study, play FB and sit in a dorm room for five years. Where do you go to have fun and meet women? A CLUB. No one says that they have to go get trashed, but in reality, ISU is lacking in things for the under 21 crowd to do except for getting drunk at house parties.

I wish that the uptight people who want to keep Ames in the 70's (Smart Growth etc) would let the town grow up.

Wow, just....wow. Who said that a FB recruit would have to "sit in a dorm room for five years" because the age to get into a bar is 21? I actually met the woman that I want to marry while I was a frosh at ISU, and just turned 21 last week. I've been to the bars once since then, and haven't met anybody that is even reasonably attractive. Meeting people and going to the bars do not mean the same thing necessarily.

EDIT: Also, having a social life shouldn't mean that you need to be a drinker. That kind of attitude is how alcoholics are created. Myself, my roomates gave me an intervention because of the fact that that's how I thought too. Since then, I've realized that drinking does not equal the wa to meet people.

 

[Cyclone62]

Let me just say this for myself and on behalf of the 30+ people I stay in contact with from my undergraduate years at Iowa State: The only thing of enduring value out of the bars and partying are embarassing but very funny stories. They are great for laughs at tailgates, but going to the bar never helped anyone network for a good job or find enduring romance.

I couldn't agree with you more. :yes4lo:

 

[cigaretteman]

FWIW, there's a petition drive going on in Iowa City right now to make the bars 21 only:

http://www.presscitizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070327/NEWS01/703270311/1079

 

[benjay]

Look, I was a college student 10 years ago. I fondly recall the wild parties we had, and talking about the number of kegs we killed at VEISHEA. I know partying and "being social" is revered as a large part of the college experience. Trust me when I say however, while fun that it is hugely overrated in the grand scheme of the total collegiate experience.

And 10 years ago, you would have called yourself crazy for saying what you just said. It does not matter to college kids what age and wisdom have taught their predecessors. They want to party, and God bless 'em.

 

[Broodwich]

Benjay,

I agree. This must just be one of those things that you have to go through the experience to understand.

Ames has improved dramatically since I was attending school, but I wish that the students would be as emphatic about improving the retail and cultural aspects of Ames as they are about adding 2 years of bar time. It's just not that big of a deal in retrospect.

The good news for people under 21 is that you can get in to two of the best venues in Ames, Old Chicago and Olde Main.

 

[jtd9046]

A recent provost's survey indicated that 70% of EIU freshmen and sophomores had engaged in "binge drinking" within the two-week period prior to which they took the survey. It's no secret that there is a serious drinking problem amongst students of all ages at EIU. A local group is considering a ballot initiative to change city code whereby bar access after 10PM would be denied those not of legal age (21).

Don't for a second think that this is not also going on at ISU and other colleges.

 

[Kyle]

Coincidentally, exit polling conducted at the 2006 council elections showed 62% of voting IC residents favored "a 21 ordinance". The bar owners association has been promising for years that they'll do a better job of policing themselves, but the number of PAULA citations has not decreased and unlike Ames, there have been multiple tragedies in IC associated with underage drinking.

I doubt that exit polling reflected much of the college student opinion since that population rarely votes. If bars are doing such a poor job policing themselves then crack down on the bars. They will clean their acts up quick once liquor licenses start getting pulled. PAULAs are not a public health issue, but would be indicative of poor policing by the bar owners. I'm not familiar with what tragedies there have been in IC, so perhaps you could fill me in. In recent memory in Ames there was the Shanda Munn incident where a drunk girl underage girl coming home from an off campus party hit and killed another drunk girl staggering home from an off campus party. The story county keg ordinance was sparked by a guy who drowned in the river after falling drunk off of a bridge and being abandoned by his scared friends. (They were drinking canned beer so how that screams keg ordinance is beyond me.)

I don't see the harm in putting it before the voters!

I could foresee some town/gown issues. I know that if I was part of the student government there I would be organizing a counter movement and using the fact that this would **** some people off.

If making access to alcohol more difficult would have helped a quarter of them, it's a process worthwhile!

That's the problem. You can't just create good behavior through paternalistic laws. We tried that during prohibition and it was proven not to work. How many of the 19 year old college students do you think are going to be like, "Gee, I'm so thankful that the old people are watching out for me on this one." How would you react to a law that prohibited anyone your age from eating fast food? Its clearly horrible for you and for your own good. Now suppose you like to go out to eat with friends and many of your friends go to McDonalds to eat on a regular basis.

 

[Broodwich]

Don't for a second think that this is not also going on at ISU and other colleges.

Yes it probably is, but if you think ISU has a drinking problem on the same scale of Iowa's you've been living under a rock. The large part of that problem is the easy access to bars by minors.

http://encarta.msn.com/college_article_partyheartyschools/that_party_the_heartiest.html

 

[jtd9046]

Yes it probably is, but if you think ISU has a drinking problem on the same scale of Iowa's you've been living under a rock. The large part of that problem is the easy access to bars by minors.

http://encarta.msn.com/college_article_partyheartyschools/that_party_the_heartiest.html

Bar or no bar, it's not hard to get access to alcohol in a college setting.

 

[bmuff]

Wow, just....wow. Who said that a FB recruit would have to "sit in a dorm room for five years" because the age to get into a bar is 21? I actually met the woman that I want to marry while I was a frosh at ISU, and just turned 21 last week. I've been to the bars once since then, and haven't met anybody that is even reasonably attractive. Meeting people and going to the bars do not mean the same thing necessarily.

EDIT: Also, having a social life shouldn't mean that you need to be a drinker. That kind of attitude is how alcoholics are created. Myself, my roomates gave me an intervention because of the fact that that's how I thought too. Since then, I've realized that drinking does not equal the wa to meet people.

Sorry to tell you this, but most college students DO like to go out and DO drink. And in a town like Ames, having a social life very likely means that you do go to the bars (or house parties)...there's just not that much else to do. No, you don't have to be a drinker to have a social life in college, but chances are if you're not, you deal with a lot of people that are. Just the way it goes I guess.

 

[Cyclone62]

I'm glad I didn't have roomates like yours when I was in college. A drinking intervention in college? A "wow, just...wow" from a 21 year old? Classic. LOL.

Well, I wouldn't trade my roommates for anyone else. They actually saw what I was doing to myself and cared enough to step in and do something. If that's so wrong, I'm glad I don't know you personally.

Also, yes, many people do like to go out and drink, I didn't deny that. I was just saying making bars 19+ is a bad idea. You do NOT need to be drinking to make friends; that is something that making bars 19+ implies to college freshman/high school kids.

 

[Kyle]

I'm glad I didn't have roomates like yours when I was in college. A drinking intervention in college? A "wow, just...wow" from a 21 year old?

I'm not sure just how bad his drinking was, but those are the kind of roommates I would want if I was getting myself in too deep. I tend to agree with most of the stuff Cyclone62 said, I just disagree that government intervention through patronizing and paternalistic laws is the way to make things better.

 

[ICCYFAN]

I just disagree that government intervention through patronizing and paternalistic laws is the way to make things better.

The federal government pressured states to adopt "21" as the legal drinking age by threatening highway funding, etc. The State of Iowa did adopt "21" as the "legal age" many years ago. If you have concerns with the legal drinking age, that's an issue for your state representative.

The fact is that state law is being circumvented in Iowa City by allowing underage adults into venues where they can easily access alcohol. The bars can't or won't police themselves (estimated $2M in revenue to IC bars from 19 & 20 y/o patrons) and the police department lacks the manpower and ordinance to stick it to the bars. City Council won't pass the ordinances they need and they continue to approve liquor license renewals for repeat violators. City Council is beholden to business owners, and alcohol is big business in Iowa City. Some would suggest that this is to the detriment of other retail business, most of which has disappeared from the "bar district" that surrounds the Ped Mall.

There are many layers of issue here, but my initial question was simply; has "21 only" in Ames lessened your college experience? I think the answer has been an overwhelming "NO". As Ames doesn't appear to have nearly the peripheral problems suffered by IC, it would appear that "21 only" would be a fine thing for IC to implement.

Thanks for your help, though I wish you would quit with the "paternalistic old people" smack. I'm neither, just a concerned citizen.

 

[Kyle]

If you have concerns with the legal drinking age, that's an issue for your state representative.

While I do have a problem with the drinking age, I also have a problem with laws that unnecessarily restrict individual freedoms. A legal drinking age is distinct from not allowing minors in places where alcohol is served.

The fact is that state law is being circumvented in Iowa City by allowing underage adults into venues where they can easily access alcohol.

The city does not have a duty to aid the enforcement of state law by enacting additional ordinances. State laws were also violated by blacks during the civil rights movement all the time. I don't want to compare underage drinking to civil rights, but instead make the point that the mere fact that something violates the law does not make it inherently wrong.

City Council won't pass the ordinances they need and they continue to approve liquor license renewals for repeat violators. City Council is beholden to business owners, and alcohol is big business in Iowa City.

If there is the political will to get the council to pass such ordinances then it should be possible to elect different council members. Grass roots organization can prosper at a local level.

There are many layers of issue here, but my initial question was simply; has "21 only" in Ames lessened your college experience? I think the answer has been an overwhelming "NO". As Ames doesn't appear to have nearly the peripheral problems suffered by IC, it would appear that "21 only" would be a fine thing for IC to implement.

I think at one point you asked about the potential harm in increased private parties. Perhaps the arguments there were not convincing, but don't base your political actions entirely on whether or not the college experience is lessened.

Thanks for your help, though I wish you would quit with the "paternalistic old people" smack. I'm neither, just a concerned citizen.

Perhaps I come across a bit harsh and I appologize. However, make no mistake that the people whose privileges you take away would think exactly that. To a college student the settled permanent residents are old. Being paternalistic is not a bad thing, it shows that you care about those younger than you. However, it can lead to poor social policy.

The desire to help people make better choices, such as not drinking too much is a laudable goal. However, doing everything possible to take that choice away is patronizing. It doesn't help kids make the right choice, it just tries to remove that choice.

 

[ICCYFAN]

The desire to help people make better choices, such as not drinking too much is a laudable goal. However, doing everything possible to take that choice away is patronizing. It doesn't help kids make the right choice, it just tries to remove that choice.

You're a heck of a debater, Kyle; you make many good points that I've considered and weighed, only my conclusions are different than yours. I expect that should the petition drive be sucessful in garnering the appropriate number of signatures, we'll be seeing this mini-debate reinacted in supersize fashion come October / November. As I age I become more liberal, but this issue in IC has blown right thru "libertarian" and emerged in "anarchy"...:rofl8yi:

The bottom line for me is that all of your very good suggestions have been attempted (a few of which include lobbying of council, student alcohol education, attempting to impose bar-owner responsibility, alcohol-free venues, etc.) yet failed miserably (in Iowa City). If a majority of the minor-aged adults fail to act in a responsible manner with privileges that they have been afforded (in IC but not Ames), to the detriment of themselves and the community, they run the risk of losing that privilege. Hopefully, that'll be for the voters, including students who register, to decide after lengthy and open debate! What's more democratic than that?

Good exchanging ideas with you, but it appears this thread has lost its steam so I'm out...

 

[Schroed]

My personal opinion is if you are an adult then you should have all the privelages that go with that. You are able to serve our country in the military at 18 then you should be able to drink at 18. There are kids as young as 12 that get charged in criminal court as adults. It should be one way or another. I am 34 and have no agenda on this issue, just an opinion.

I agree completely.

However; one of the things that makes Ames different than Iowa City is the house parties. Nobody has house parties in IC. Going to the bars all of the time gets old.

 

[tejasclone]

At 33 years of age, I can say that I think Ames has a long way to go to make the community more student friendly and oriented, but I don't think that allowing admittance to a bar or tavern at 19 or over is one of these steps. After walking over piles of vomit on the Ped Mall in Iowa City after Pints or Flip-Night I don't think this is a positive move for the community as a whole to accommodating the partying habits an age demographic of two years. While UI may wear it's Top 10 party school ranking as a badge of honor, I think it's caused a lot of problems on their campus that we would be smart to avoid. Ames doesn't have to be Iowa City, and quite frankly people who would choose UI over ISU because it has a "better party scene", well I say have a good time in black and gold.

BINGO

My sentiments exactly.

 

[tejasclone]

EDIT: Also, having a social life shouldn't mean that you need to be a drinker. That kind of attitude is how alcoholics are created. Myself, my roomates gave me an intervention because of the fact that that's how I thought too. Since then, I've realized that drinking does not equal the wa to meet people.

I completely agree. You can have plenty of fun without drinking yourself stupid. Not drinking doesn't make you a "square" or a "sissy" --it's a healthy alternative. I have never felt the need to drink in order to be social and have an enjoyable time. Maybe that makes me a boring person, but I have no regrets.

 

[Cyclone62]

I completely agree. You can have plenty of fun without drinking yourself stupid. Not drinking doesn't make you a "square" or a "sissy" --it's a healthy alternative. I have never felt the need to drink in order to be social and have an enjoyable time. Maybe that makes me a boring person, but I have no regrets.

Good point. Just for contradiction's sake, what happens when a student/athelete has the choice of "moving on" from the program? I beleive that they should have that privelige as long as they inform their potential coach beforehand.