ISU Football & Unrealistic Expectations

VeloClone

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Jan 19, 2010
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As long as people are pointing out Washington State as a program to pattern after AND that ISU must have a coach with Div 1 head coaching experience I feel that I would be remiss if I didn't point out that Jim Walden was head coach at WSU before taking the same job at ISU.

:elvis:
 

norcalcy

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Oct 20, 2010
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Iowa State followed that advice with our last 2 coaches......Gene Chizik and CPR.

Give me a Brian Kelley or a Hayden Fry or a guy with head coaching experience. Another Coordinator Hire will not be good in selling hope to the fan base.

Fair enough. How about Houston Nutt, Butch Davis, Greg Schiano, Ed Orgeron?
 

Cyclophile1

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Dec 14, 2009
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The OP, like many in our fan base, is experiencing the sports equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome. We have accepted losing and 'our lowly place' in the conference football hierarchy. We have embraced mediocrity and think we can't possibly do any better than that. I know it, because I have to fight this mentality myself. It's a self-applied straightjacket of low expectations that can creep ever downward. "Poor little old Iowa State." Bottom line is we have to stop this kind of thinking.

We're 11-33 since conference play started in 2012. If we manage to split the last two, that will leave us at 9-27 in the past three years. The question before us is "Is a 25% win rate good enough for Iowa State?"

Personally, my answer is not only No but HELL NO. I like Rhoads a ton and think he's a great fit for everything about ISU. I understand the circumstances, shanked FGs and weird bounces, blown calls and puzzling replay reviews. I really do get the uphill battle we're in. Nobody cares about the asterisks by the W-L record. However, at some point you have to actually win some games. Even at Iowa State, you have to do better than around 25% to 30% winning percentage.

Cheers
 

cycloneworld

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No Coordinators. NO. No FCS Coaches. NO. I want a Head Coach at an FBS school.

And someone gave you a list of a dozen qualified candidates that would likely have interest in the Iowa State job. You asked for a list and you got it. So instead of discussing the list you asked for, you brought up a dumb analogy of comparing Rhoads to Ferentz which is laughable at best.

I would bet you any amount of money that a Dino Babers or PJ Fleck coach this year would have the same or more wins than Rhoads. And I'm very confident they would have more wins.

We know what we are going to get out of Rhoads and it isn't good. Why not give someone else a shot? They can't be any worse.
 
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Stormin

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Fair enough. How about Houston Nutt, Butch Davis, Greg Schiano, Ed Orgeron?

I would be willing to take Davis or Schiano. IMO, Miami might have the inside track. At the same time we do have a fair amount of talent on the roster returning that could be attractive to a new head coach.
 

SenorCy

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This team has a serious up side and is looking to be a VERY competitive team for the next couple of years. Something that one should be able to see. One that was put together by current coaches.
So like last year and the year before?

Change in coaches as ALL should know leads to a usual drop off.
So two wins instead of three?
 

cycloneworld

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I would be willing to take Davis or Schiano. IMO, Miami might have the inside track. At the same time we do have a fair amount of talent on the roster returning that could be attractive to a new head coach.

This is the primary reason why I think we should make a change after this year instead of waiting another year. It's almost like the Hoiberg-Prohm situation (except Rhoads doesn't win). Even with all of the openings, I think we can get a solid up and coming head coach to Ames with the talent returning on this team. Instead of watching this coaching staff under perform once again next year and lose even more close games.
 

Cyvet95

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It's NOT just K State. It wasn't just Bill Snyder that resurrected a bad program.

What about
Hayden Fry at Iowa?
Barry Alvarez at Wisconsin?
Gary Barnett at Northwestern?
Gary Pinkel at Missouri?
Les Miles at Oklahoma State?
Art Briles at Baylor?
Bobby Bowden at FSU?

Quit pretending like Snyder is some obscure outlier. A program (Iowa State)not having a quality coach since the '70's is the true outlier.


This is a great post. Add one more (going back aways) - Johnny Majors at Pittsburgh
With that said I still don't know if anyone on campus knows how to find that guy that can perform this at Iowa State. Chizik has proven he's not a head coach - but how did he get good recruits that Paul Rhoads won with to come here?

For all the world I wish Paul could succeed here. But he and his staff just can't seem to recruit. I'm so tired of reading about recruits who turned down offers from schools like South Dakota, New Mexico, Tulane, etc to come here. It takes players and Paul just doesn't seem capable of getting them. Or, it takes a staff with a great eye for the "missed" recruit - the up and comer. I'm not sure if Rhoads should be fired. He is perfect for Iowa State in many ways. His team HAS NOT QUIT on him, and seems a little revived after the Mangino change. I do know it won't help to do what Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, and others have done with their last hires. Big flashes that are complete failures. Hard as it is to say... it could get worse. I almost lean toward giving Rhoads a couple of years to see if he can put the new facilities to work in selling ISU to recruits
 

Dannynoonan

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CPR has made plenty of mistakes. Not puffing out my chest. I have observed pretty decent play the last few games. Not sure it would be wise to just fire CPR and replace him with whomever. Understand the frustration. At the same time, there are many factors to consider. Also understand, that if a change is made that we are married to that change for the next several years, no matter what.

i agree with stormin that some improvements have been made. for the first time in a few years i may be willing to have rhoads back- if we win the last two games. except for half of the OU game we have been competitive since lanning has started and i think if joel gets all the attention at qb his passing skills improve. (i haven't seen this mentioned, but if he completes the pass to bundrage on the infamous series we win the game- overthrew an easy completion.)

now, there should be hope that when rhoads is gone we can get a very good coach. we do have some things to attract a new coach right now if jamie does fire him. we have a young qb, very talented and young rb, good receivers, and more epxerience on the defensive side. the old "iowa state is a crappy place to coach" isn't true anymore. that is a lie- we have great facilities all around and a tremendous fan base. the biggest problem i see is GETTING a candidate to come here and look around because of the stigma that isu has.
 

twojman

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None of this matters guys, everything we said is a waste. Pollard made his decision. Since there is a posting for an assistant HC position now on cyclones.com we can see his mind has been made up....no matter what. The way he gushed about the first half of the OU game struck me as strange but it makes sense. Hopefully we are better in 2016.... I am not banking on it. What am I banking on? Moral victories, excuses and the coaching staff/AD blaming refs for games. This is what we have seen the last few years.
 

jdoggivjc

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The Cyclones just came within a hair's breadth of upsetting the undefeated, 5th ranked college team in the nation, scoring 31 points on them and this team and its coaching staff is not worthy of your support? You have no rational way of assessing football teams.

Iowa State exists in a low population northern state and competes for in-state recruits with the University of Iowa (presently undefeated) and UNI (which is consistently a top team in its conference). Rhodes has no way of getting the same quality of recruits that the top teams do, but yet is fielding a team that has respectfully played through the toughest schedule in the nation - and the team is getting better every game. There is no coach in the nation that can magically cure our recruiting challenge, unless the NCAA starts allowing direct payment of recruits to join up. All you can ask is that they overachieve, which I think Rhodes has done in spades. This game showed the team can play serious football against bigger, faster and theoretically better players, exactly what is the task of any ISU coach.

Otherwise, what you are asking is for a coach to somehow woo top tier recruits to Iowa State, something that might happen once in a while, but is likely to not happen at all without a couple years of top ranking. We just almost beat the number 5 team in the nation (and for a couple of calls, we might have done so) with a team made up of leftover recruits (no offense to the players, who just showed what sort of real men they were) that have somehow been crafted and molded into a dangerous team that has the ability to beat top teams. (Perhaps not every week, but we are not in any way a sure-thing win for any team in the nation.) And that takes serious coaching to accomplish, an arguably much harder task than the coaching task of the coaches at the Top 25 schools, which have the cream of the crop of national players on their roster.

That we lost this game truly sucks, but I am so very proud of this team, (and of our coach), who fearlessly played smash mouth ball against an undefeated titan, at home, holding nothing back - and (maddeningly) came up short, a victim of some brilliantly executed single plays by our opponent down the stretch. (And a few strategic mistakes, by us in the end).

If you can't see that objective reality, you might want to pick another team to root on, as things will likely not be easy for us anytime soon. I personally, am fine with that, and if we ever get to a higher level through our over achievement, and the upper tier recruits start seriously considering Iowa State, then we will see the path to the top made possible. (K-State)

As for Rhodes, I think he is doing a fantastic job, and I am proud to have him as our coach. You will get no better outcomes through a coaching change - only discontinuity. We are the underdog in many ways and that can't be fixed simply by an attitude change on the part of anyone, fans, coaches, or administration. We have a lot working against our success in a conference of mostly top tier teams. But I would rather play the best, being in the Big 12, but lose more and allow that experience to drive our excellence, than romp around playfully in something like CUSA, with a great win/loss record, rarely playing anyone truly excellent. And that is our real option if we want to rapidly change our win/loss ratio quickly.

If all you care about is wins, (and I know some have that attitude) than there are other teams you can be a fan of that do not have the challenges ISU has before them, that you would be more likely to be happy with. Complaining about coaching when we doing things like zeroing Oklahoma and almost beating Oklahoma State with scrappy select third tier, fourth tier and ju-co recruits, is stupid. Honestly, it is amazing we can stand up to any of these teams. But we do.

The path to winning and being in the top tier of teams is a very tough one, and not one that is likely to be achieved through a coaching change alone. It will take working hard using committed lower-rated players and getting them somehow to overachieve, until we can get enough respect to get the top national recruits to start coming to play for us, instead of the @50 other teams that have a history of top ranking. And a lot of that, Rhodes is accomplishing pretty well.

Until we are considered a top-tier, our guys will be covering elites that run faster than they do (being elite sprinters), are bigger and stronger on the line (being elite linemen), and who are the hardest to tackle and cover (being elite backs) and will be picked apart sometimes by an elite quarterback. Sometimes, the mismatch at certain positions against a certain opponent will render a game next to unwinnable by any method. Welcome to reality - live with it. Those of us that recognize the growth of our team and our program don't have a losing attitude, we don't live in fantasy-land where we don't realize what it really takes to win regularly in this conference as an Iowa State. We simply realize that we are not there yet, and need to support the movement towards that end by not being fair-weather-only fans.

8-26 since 2013 is doing a "fantastic job"? You are either the biggest hokeye tool posing as a Cyclone fan on this site or you are the kind of fan I don't want associated with this fan base. Assuming you actually are a Cyclone fan, you and your kind are one the biggest reasons why Iowa State has the football history that it does have - the attitude that "We are Iowa State - we've never done better, so we can't do better now, and to expect better in the future is completely unfair to the coaches we have now." The unquestioning loyalty from fans like you is one of the biggest weaknesses of Cyclone athletics because people like you will continue pouring money into this dumpster fire because either you don't realize the dumpster is on fire, you don't care the dumpster is on fire, or you actually like that the dumpster is on fire.

If us fans want a winning football program, us fans have to DEMAND a winning football program. I'm not unrealistic - I'm not expecting the kind of success that the Oklahoma or Texas schools see on a regular basis. But, as I posted earlier in this thread, what's so unreasonable about expecting an average of 6 wins over an extended period, some years more, some years fewer? There's NOTHING unreasonable about that. And it's something you're not going to get with Rhoads at the head coach because he's shown over and over again he's too incompetent at game management.
 

Stormin

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This is a great post. Add one more (going back aways) - Johnny Majors at Pittsburgh
With that said I still don't know if anyone on campus knows how to find that guy that can perform this at Iowa State. Chizik has proven he's not a head coach - but how did he get good recruits that Paul Rhoads won with to come here?

For all the world I wish Paul could succeed here. But he and his staff just can't seem to recruit. I'm so tired of reading about recruits who turned down offers from schools like South Dakota, New Mexico, Tulane, etc to come here. It takes players and Paul just doesn't seem capable of getting them. Or, it takes a staff with a great eye for the "missed" recruit - the up and comer. I'm not sure if Rhoads should be fired. He is perfect for Iowa State in many ways. His team HAS NOT QUIT on him, and seems a little revived after the Mangino change. I do know it won't help to do what Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, and others have done with their last hires. Big flashes that are complete failures. Hard as it is to say... it could get worse. I almost lean toward giving Rhoads a couple of years to see if he can put the new facilities to work in selling ISU to recruits

For the umpteenth time. QUIT repeating the lie that Chizik was this awesome recruiter. Chizik got a few good players that were memorable, but the majority were complete busts

Everyone keeps repeating this....over and over. And it is just not true. Go through Chizik recruiting classes and see how many starters and players Chizik actually got.
 

CyFan61

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For the umpteenth time. QUIT repeating the lie that Chizik was this awesome recruiter. Chizik got a few good players that were memorable, but the majority were complete busts

Everyone keeps repeating this....over and over. And it is just not true. Go through Chizik recruiting classes and see how many starters and players Chizik actually got.

How many players has ISU put in the NFL over the last five or so years?

How many of them were recruited by Chizik?

Kelechi Osemele - Chizik
AJ Klein - Chizik
Leonard Johnson - Chizik
Josh Lenz - Chizik

That's off the top of my head.
 

Stormin

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How many players has ISU put in the NFL over the last five or so years?

How many of them were recruited by Chizik?

Kelechi Osemele - Chizik
AJ Klein - Chizik
Leonard Johnson - Chizik
Josh Lenz - Chizik

That's off the top of my head.

EJ Bibbs
Jeremiah George
Jake Knott
David Irving

That is off the top of my head. And it could be argued that it was CPR was the one that developed those players in to NFL Players since Chizik barely coached any of them for any length of time. And did not coach Klein or Lenz at all.....who CPR had to recruit and get them to recommit after Chizik left.

I have stated that Chizik got a few well known great recruits. But the majority of Chizik's classes were complete busts. Chizik did not bring in very many pkayers that actually contributed to the team. And you need numbers of decent players. Not busts.
 

norcalcy

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I suppose you could argue about Chizik v Rhoads forever. What they both did was recruit some pretty good 2* and 3* players. The difference between success and failure IMO comes down to the ability to develop players (starters and depth), prepare for opponents (maximize strengths, minimize mistakes) and make adjustments in game. It doesn't matter who ISU hires (assistant or HC experience), he needs to put the pieces in place to coach up good 2* and 3* players. Chizik recruited some nice players, Rhoads has recruited some nice players. What plagued them both were bad asst. coach hires and an overall failure to effectively control the things that you can control as an ISU Head Coach.
 

Stormin

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I suppose you could argue about Chizik v Rhoads forever. What they both did was recruit some pretty good 2* and 3* players. The difference between success and failure IMO comes down to the ability to develop players (starters and depth), prepare for opponents (maximize strengths, minimize mistakes) and make adjustments in game. It doesn't matter who ISU hires (assistant or HC experience), he needs to put the pieces in place to coach up good 2* and 3* players. Chizik recruited some nice players, Rhoads has recruited some nice players. What plagued them both were bad asst. coach hires and an overall failure to effectively control the things that you can control as an ISU Head Coach.

C'mon. CPR at least won some games at Iowa State. Chizik didn't beat anyone at any time.
 

norcalcy

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C'mon. CPR at least won some games at Iowa State. Chizik didn't beat anyone at any time.

I hear what you are saying, but it comes down to the fact that you are what your record says you are:

Chizik: .208
Rhoads: .376
ISU football all time: .453

No need to over think what is in front of you
 
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I heard that CPR has already been told he is back next year. Shown enough improvement since Mangino was replaced. Might as well accept it.
 

cycloneworld

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I heard that CPR has already been told he is back next year. Shown enough improvement since Mangino was replaced. Might as well accept it.

So we've heard this and we've heard that Leath will make JP fire him.

I'd guess neither is true and that Rhoads will be evaluated at the end of the year as it makes a pretty big difference if we are 5-7 or 3-9 IMO.
 

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