Big10 rumors today

VoiceOfReason

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I think the Big Ten's plan is probably going to twenty teams in the relatively short-term, adding six teams with a combination of solid athletics and AAU academics that ideally add television markets. I think in that situation they'll end up just scheduling round-robin with each team getting three protected cross-overs. I used to be a huge advocate for a pod-style scheduling system, but I think it unnecessarily limits recruiting opportunities, especially with a conference bigger than 16 teams.

Four of the six teams to me are very clear. Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia are obvious choices. All are AAU members with decent athletics, decent brands, and add new television markets. It also become far and away the best college basketball conference with Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, North Carolina, Duke, Kansas, etc.

I know people will doubt the ACC raid, but I think the Alliance was more of a means to an end for the Big Ten to loosen the ESPN-SEC death-grip than some kind of long-term partnership. The ACC is pretty weak right now with Virginia Tech, Florida State, Louisville, and Syracuse all letting their athletic programs kind of slip recently. Clemson also has lost a lot of its luster in the past couple months with their down football season. I would imagine the Big Ten will attempt to capitalize on that.

The Pac-12 is a much tougher raid and why I think the Big Ten will stay away for now. They have a really strong core of universities, both from an academic and athletic perspective (UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Utah, Washington) and I think if the Big Ten is going to land any of those teams, it's going to have to be a package in a potential merger situation.

That leaves two spots for three candidates, Pitt, Georgia Tech, and Iowa State. They're the only other AAU schools that have legitimate P5 athletics that aren't already tied to the Pac-12 or SEC. Each have their own pros and cons. Pitt gives the Big Ten another mega-market (but one that probably is already captured by Penn State) and gives Penn State a natural rival. Pitt also seems to be a pretty good fit culturally. Iowa State brings a good program, a fantastic existing rivalry with Iowa, and could help continue to capture the markets in the Midwest that I don't think the Big Ten does as well in (Kansas City and St. Louis). They also are seemingly a tremendous fit culturally, with Campbell bucking Big 12 trends in recent years by playing defense. Georgia Tech brings a great media market, but one where they're often overshadowed by the SEC. I don't think they're a very good fit culturally, but it could make it easier for the Big Ten to recruit the deep south.

If you twisted my arm, I think I'd say the two schools in that group that make the most sense for the Big Ten are Pitt and Iowa State. It also soften the blow of the ACC raid by not taking Georgia Tech as well, effectively destroying that conference by leaving it with nine teams. I also think that if the Big Ten starts to expand, the SEC will do the same and Georgia Tech and Florida State would seemingly be prime candidates.

I understand the doubt that Iowa would approve of Iowa State joining the Big Ten and it's the same situation with Penn State and Pitt, but we're in a very different landscape. We are rapidly approaching CFB "end-times" and I think schools are more worried about securing their own future and the future of their conference than small in-state recruiting advantages. When the initial round of expansions happened, everyone was saying that Oklahoma would never leave the Big 12 without Oklahoma State. Partnerships like that are going to be relatively thin going forward.

The situation with Iowa and Matt Campbell does provide a bit of CyHawk spice, though. Campbell is obviously very talented and a beast of a coach for Iowa State. Would Iowa temporarily attempt to hold an Iowa State-Big Ten invitation if they thought that Campbell would jump ship with Iowa State "stuck" in the new Big 12? I am not sure.

If Iowa State did score an invite, their football schedule would look something like Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas (the protected games), six round-robin games against the rest of the Big Ten, one "Alliance" game (the Pac 12 and the ACC now combine for 22 teams, so the Big Ten member will be guaranteed one of those games with two Pac-12/ACC teams sitting out each year), and two non-conference, home, paid, tune-up games against low-level FBS teams.

Long-term, I think the end-goal is to force some kind of merger with the Pac-12, at least in terms of television rights and other shared resources, then to pick up any quality programs left from non-SEC conferences. They could even have a shared conference championship game at the Rose Bowl. Selling the football television rights for 40+ teams with several premiere programs from coast-to-coast so you can provide a full slate of games with a Thursday night game, a Friday night game, and games from 10:00 AM on Saturday Morning to 1:00 AM early Sunday morning is a pretty big hammer to be swinging around. The basketball with a conference like that essentially becomes the premiere basketball league in the country, rivaling even the NBA in terms of entertainment value and actually could go a long ways towards getting some of the dormant college basketball programs (UCLA, for example) back on the map.
 
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RustShack

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I think the Big Ten's plan is probably going to twenty teams in the relatively short-term, adding six teams with a combination of solid athletics and AAU academics that ideally add television markets. I think in that situation they'll end up just scheduling round-robin with each team getting three protected cross-overs. I used to be a huge advocate for a pod-style scheduling system, but I think it unnecessarily limits recruiting opportunities, especially with a conference bigger than 16 teams.

Four of the six teams to me are very clear. Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia are obvious choices. All are AAU members with decent athletics, decent brands, and add new television markets. It also become far and away the best college basketball conference with Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, North Carolina, Duke, Kansas, etc.

I know people will doubt the ACC raid, but I think the Alliance was more of a means to an end for the Big Ten to loosen the ESPN/SEC death-grip than some kind of long-term partnership. The ACC is pretty weak right now with Virginia Tech, Florida State, Louisville, and Syracuse all letting their athletic programs kind of slip recently. Clemson also has lost a lot of its luster in the past couple months with their down football season. I would imagine the Big Ten will attempt to capitalize on that.

The Pac-12 is a much tougher raid and why I think the Big Ten will stay away for now. They have a really strong core of universities, both from an academic and athletic perspective (UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Utah, Washington) and I think if the Big Ten is going to land any of those teams, it's going to have to be a package in a potential merger situation.

That leaves two spots for three candidates, Pitt, Georgia Tech, and Iowa State. They're the only other AAU schools that have legitimate P5 athletics that aren't already tied to the Pac-12 or SEC. Each have their own pros and cons. Pitt gives the Big Ten another mega-market (but one that probably is already captured by Penn State) and gives Penn State a natural rival. Pitt also seems to be a pretty good fit culturally. Iowa State brings a good program, a fantastic existing rivalry with Iowa, and could help continue to capture the markets in the Midwest that I don't think the Big Ten does as well in (Kansas City and St. Louis). They also are seemingly a tremendous fit culturally, with Campbell bucking Big 12 trends in recent years by playing defense. Georgia Tech brings a great media market, but one where they're often overshadowed by the SEC. I don't think they're a very good fit culturally, but it could make it easier for the Big Ten to recruit the deep south.

If you twisted my arm, I think I'd say the two schools in that group that make the most sense for the Big Ten are Pitt and Iowa State. It also soften the blow of the ACC raid by not taking Georgia Tech as well, effectively destroying that conference by leaving it with nine teams. I also think that if the Big Ten starts to expand, the SEC will do the same and Georgia Tech and Florida State would seemingly be prime candidates.

I understand the doubt that Iowa would approve of Iowa State joining the Big Ten and it's the same situation with Penn State and Pitt, but we're in a very different landscape. We are rapidly approaching CFB "end-times" and I think schools are more worried about securing their own future and the future of their conference than small in-state recruiting advantages. When the initial round of expansions happened, everyone was saying that Oklahoma would never leave the Big 12 without Oklahoma State. Partnerships like that are going to be relatively thin going forward.

The situation with Iowa and Matt Campbell does provide a bit of CyHawk spice, though. Campbell is obviously very talented and a beast of a coach for Iowa State. Would Iowa temporarily attempt to hold an Iowa State-Big Ten invitation if they thought that Campbell would jump ship with Iowa State "stuck" in the new Big 12? I am not sure.

If Iowa State did score an invite, their football schedule would look something like Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas (the protected games), six round-robin games against the rest of the Big Ten, one "Alliance" game (the Pac 12 and the ACC now combine for 22 teams, so the Big Ten member will be guaranteed one of those games with two Pac-12/ACC teams sitting out each year), and two non-conference, home, paid, tune-up games against low-level FBS teams.

Long-term, I think the end-goal is to force some kind of merger with the Pac-12, at least in terms of television rights and other shared resources, then to pick up any quality programs left from non-SEC conferences. They could even have a shared conference championship game at the Rose Bowl. Selling the football television rights for 40+ teams with several premiere programs from coast-to-coast so you can provide a full slate of games with a Thursday night game, a Friday night game, and games from 10:00 AM on Saturday Morning to 1:00 AM early Sunday morning is a pretty big hammer to be swinging around. The basketball with a conference like that essentially becomes the premiere basketball league in the country, rivaling even the NBA in terms of entertainment value and actually could go a long ways towards getting some of the dormant college basketball programs (UCLA, for example) back on the map.

I think you forgot that the ACC has their GoR for another ten years.
 

LeaningCy

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The situation with Iowa and Matt Campbell does provide a bit of CyHawk spice, though. Campbell is obviously very talented and a beast of a coach for Iowa State. Would Iowa temporarily attempt to hold an Iowa State-Big Ten invitation if they thought that Campbell would jump ship with Iowa State "stuck" in the new Big 12? I am not sure.

I get your point here but Campbell staying at ISU has been working just fine for Iowa so far. Iowa State is now a solid team that Iowa beats routinely.

A counterargument would be if ISU did join the B1G, would the CyHawk game move from September to November? If so, Iowa may not have as much of an advantage if recent trends continue (starting rough and gaining steam as the season progresses).
 

jctisu

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Feel free to block me. Also super interested on where I have been wrong? I said exactly what was happening with big ten expansion from the beginning, laid out the exact alliance details before they were public, and also said the big 12 expansion targets before it happened (admittedly didn’t think you were going to add this many). Really didn’t think saying KU has no value from a big ten perspective would be that big of an issue on an ISU page. In a couple years could things change, sure, but for the near future it is what it is.
No offense but the things you tout as being right about are what most level-headed people here and nationally thought. Everybody not looking for clicks knew dang well the BIG wasn’t adding ISU and KU. They also knew that the other conferences had to halt the SEC’s power move so some sort of agreement or alliance in some fashion was going to have to occur.

And with only 8 schools, of course the Big 12 had to add schools. The ones we added were what everyone anywhere has said were next in line to add for several years now.

You may very well have good sources, but until you offer up something with serious substance that most wouldn’t know or be able to piece together with any sort of thought, it’s hard to tell how “sourced” you truly are. Just the way it appears to me having followed your posts here.
 

Scruff

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I think the Big Ten's plan is probably going to twenty teams in the relatively short-term, adding six teams with a combination of solid athletics and AAU academics that ideally add television markets. I think in that situation they'll end up just scheduling round-robin with each team getting three protected cross-overs. I used to be a huge advocate for a pod-style scheduling system, but I think it unnecessarily limits recruiting opportunities, especially with a conference bigger than 16 teams.

Four of the six teams to me are very clear. Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia are obvious choices. All are AAU members with decent athletics, decent brands, and add new television markets. It also become far and away the best college basketball conference with Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, North Carolina, Duke, Kansas, etc.

I know people will doubt the ACC raid, but I think the Alliance was more of a means to an end for the Big Ten to loosen the ESPN/SEC death-grip than some kind of long-term partnership. The ACC is pretty weak right now with Virginia Tech, Florida State, Louisville, and Syracuse all letting their athletic programs kind of slip recently. Clemson also has lost a lot of its luster in the past couple months with their down football season. I would imagine the Big Ten will attempt to capitalize on that.

The Pac-12 is a much tougher raid and why I think the Big Ten will stay away for now. They have a really strong core of universities, both from an academic and athletic perspective (UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Utah, Washington) and I think if the Big Ten is going to land any of those teams, it's going to have to be a package in a potential merger situation.

That leaves two spots for three candidates, Pitt, Georgia Tech, and Iowa State. They're the only other AAU schools that have legitimate P5 athletics that aren't already tied to the Pac-12 or SEC. Each have their own pros and cons. Pitt gives the Big Ten another mega-market (but one that probably is already captured by Penn State) and gives Penn State a natural rival. Pitt also seems to be a pretty good fit culturally. Iowa State brings a good program, a fantastic existing rivalry with Iowa, and could help continue to capture the markets in the Midwest that I don't think the Big Ten does as well in (Kansas City and St. Louis). They also are seemingly a tremendous fit culturally, with Campbell bucking Big 12 trends in recent years by playing defense. Georgia Tech brings a great media market, but one where they're often overshadowed by the SEC. I don't think they're a very good fit culturally, but it could make it easier for the Big Ten to recruit the deep south.

If you twisted my arm, I think I'd say the two schools in that group that make the most sense for the Big Ten are Pitt and Iowa State. It also soften the blow of the ACC raid by not taking Georgia Tech as well, effectively destroying that conference by leaving it with nine teams. I also think that if the Big Ten starts to expand, the SEC will do the same and Georgia Tech and Florida State would seemingly be prime candidates.

I understand the doubt that Iowa would approve of Iowa State joining the Big Ten and it's the same situation with Penn State and Pitt, but we're in a very different landscape. We are rapidly approaching CFB "end-times" and I think schools are more worried about securing their own future and the future of their conference than small in-state recruiting advantages. When the initial round of expansions happened, everyone was saying that Oklahoma would never leave the Big 12 without Oklahoma State. Partnerships like that are going to be relatively thin going forward.

The situation with Iowa and Matt Campbell does provide a bit of CyHawk spice, though. Campbell is obviously very talented and a beast of a coach for Iowa State. Would Iowa temporarily attempt to hold an Iowa State-Big Ten invitation if they thought that Campbell would jump ship with Iowa State "stuck" in the new Big 12? I am not sure.

If Iowa State did score an invite, their football schedule would look something like Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas (the protected games), six round-robin games against the rest of the Big Ten, one "Alliance" game (the Pac 12 and the ACC now combine for 22 teams, so the Big Ten member will be guaranteed one of those games with two Pac-12/ACC teams sitting out each year), and two non-conference, home, paid, tune-up games against low-level FBS teams.

Long-term, I think the end-goal is to force some kind of merger with the Pac-12, at least in terms of television rights and other shared resources, then to pick up any quality programs left from non-SEC conferences. They could even have a shared conference championship game at the Rose Bowl. Selling the football television rights for 40+ teams with several premiere programs from coast-to-coast so you can provide a full slate of games with a Thursday night game, a Friday night game, and games from 10:00 AM on Saturday Morning to 1:00 AM early Sunday morning is a pretty big hammer to be swinging around. The basketball with a conference like that essentially becomes the premiere basketball league in the country, rivaling even the NBA in terms of entertainment value and actually could go a long ways towards getting some of the dormant college basketball programs (UCLA, for example) back on the map.
I made the comment earlier that they should just make a massive 30 team conference and take the remaining AAU members not in the SEC. Superior to the SEC in everything except football, but with that many teams they'll give them a run for their money there too. It might not make geographical sense as a conference, but the divisions/pods could with a cool scheduling alliance. It literally would become the AFC/NFC situation, but ISU would be included thanks to the AAU.
 

isucy86

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ACC GOR is thru 2036. They have 15 years left

Who can break the ACC GOR? Would be interested if anyone has legal knowledge of situation.

Is it possible if a majority or super majority of ACC schools support breaking the GOR it could happen.

Why would a majority of ACC schools want to break the GOR? $$$$$$$$$

ACC schools are making $35M +- $3M from their current deal ACC Network deal with ESPN. With their new deals SEC and Big10 schools will be making $60M-$90M over the 2024-2032ish time period.

So if ACC schools feel they have landing spots in the Big10 or SEC, then maybe they break the GOR. I would suspect the Big10 would be interested in: Notre Dame, Duke, Virginia, North Carolina and GA Tech. Likewise I could see Va Tech, NC State, Clemson, Florida State & Miami going to the SEC.

ESPN might not stand in the ACC's way if it means if they get some of the ACC's better FB programs in the SEC.
 

isucy86

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ACC GOR is thru 2036. They have 15 years left

Who can break the ACC GOR? Would be interested if anyone has legal knowledge of situation.

Is it possible if a majority or super majority of ACC schools support breaking the GOR?

Why would a majority of ACC schools want to break the GOR? $$$$$$$$$

ACC schools are making $35M +- $3M from their current ACC Network deal with ESPN. With their new deals SEC and Big10 schools will be making $60M-$90M over the 2024-2032ish time period.

So if ACC schools feel they have landing spots in the Big10 or SEC, then maybe they break the GOR. I would suspect the Big10 would be interested in: Notre Dame, Duke, Virginia, North Carolina and GA Tech. Likewise I could see Va Tech, NC State, Clemson, Florida State & Miami going to the SEC.

ESPN might not stand in the ACC's way if it means if they get some of the ACC's better FB programs in the SEC.
 

Scruff

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Their GOR may last longer than the Big 12's, but ever since OU/TX announcements I'm not a believer in that GOR will prevent any team from doing anything.
 

RustShack

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Their GOR may last longer than the Big 12's, but ever since OU/TX announcements I'm not a believer in that GOR will prevent any team from doing anything.

Texas and OU announced they are leaving when the GoR expires. Everyone just assumes they are gone before that, and they may try, but it won’t be cheap or easy. Which again, like I said earlier, is why other conferences are watching to see how it plays out with them.
 
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VoiceOfReason

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And that Iowa has already made it clear they would not try to block ISU to the B1G
Eh. There's a big difference between saying thing for PR reasons and actually doing it.

I think you forgot that the ACC has their GoR for another ten years.
I didn't and it's actually fifteen more years. I just think it's overstated. I would recommend checking out this article for more info. It's about the Big 12 and while I don't totally agree with what the author writes, the information is still relevant, interesting, and proves these things can be interpreted in a hundred different ways.

There's also just a real-world component. If the Big Ten was rumored to be looking at nabbing four ACC teams, then I think there would be other conferences that were interested suitors in other ACC teams (For example, I could see the SEC jumping at the chance to add Clemson and Florida State) and other ACC teams would be more aggressive about finding a new home. Losing that many teams would likely spell the end of the ACC with the conference dissolving as the other schools tried to find stable homes. Even if they could find two teams to get back to ten teams (likely the minimum for them continuing to have a conference in football), I don't think they would get very far trying to collect.

Yes, those six teams would be in breach of contract, but it would almost be impossible for the court system to calculate the "damages." The six teams would simply say that they weren't going let the ACC keep their right and the ACC would sue. The damages would essentially be the impact that those six schools had on the conference's TV rights over the next fifteen years. That deal with ESPN is already signed so we know exactly how much those rights are worth, but ESPN pays for the conference's rights, not the rights of individual schools.

In the past, ESPN has not reduced TV payouts when a school lost members. The last time the ACC lost a member (Maryland), ESPN continued to pay the ACC their previously-negotiated TV deal. In that case, the Maryland Grant of Rights damages were zero, because Maryland leaving the league did not have any negative financial impact on the conference.

Things would probably be a little different if six teams left. ESPN would almost certainly choose to renegotiate their deal, but it would still be almost impossible to calculate. Most would argue that the best way to calculate the damage is to take the remaining money on the deal and have the departing schools pay the approximately 43% remaining (for six of the fourteen teams), but that wouldn't work because it's not the real damage done to the conference's television rights. That means that we need to go deeper down the damages rabbit hole.

If ESPN chooses to renegotiate the ACC's television rights, they will almost certainly not be alone in bidding. Let's say the ACC adds more teams to keep chugging along. CBS, Fox, even Amazon could be interested in nabbing the TV rights for the revitalized ACC. Would they get a crazy amount of money? Probably not, but they're still going to get a decent premium versus what is probably fair value. For example, if the current ACC TV rights were up for bid right now, they would get significantly more than they did five years ago. That's why conferences are sometimes compelled to expand in the middle of a long TV deal.

This new ACC is obviously going to make significantly less money than they were making before the departures. The difference between the two would likely be considered the "damages." That hypothetical number is significantly less than the full Grant of Rights amount for those schools, but the calculation doesn't end there.

In an ideal world, all six schools' television rights would be worth the same amount, but that's not the case. If we take the old ACC TV revenue and subtract the new ACC TV revenue, we can't just divide that number by the six schools that are leaving. North Carolina's football TV rights are far more valuable than Virginia's football TV rights. It doesn't matter that they're going to the same conference or that they're going together because the agreement is between the individual schools and the conference. So, if you try to charge them the same amount, they're all going to argue that they are less valuable than the others. At that point, you're in six different lawsuits with six different teams, trying to get six different courts to award significant damages six different times.

There's all kinds of legal arguments schools could make during those proceedings. The ACC isn't the same conference because so many teams left, when one school breached the contract the ACC wasn't the ACC anymore, the ACC added schools that watered-down the conference, the ACC renegotiated its television rights so they shouldn't have to pay based on the old number, etc. It would be almost impossible to get anywhere near the amount of money that those schools TV rights are worth over that time, if anything at all in some of the six cases.

Obviously, we don't have any idea what would happen, but if I had to guess (and this is just guesswork, so don't beat me up too badly), I would say they would probably average about 25% of the difference between the old ACC and new ACC TV deals. If we say the new ACC TV deal would be somewhere around the slightly-premium end of a deal like the AAC's that would mean that the ACC would be collecting roughly $5 million per school per year (with the schools paying more or less depending on how they fared while the legal process played out). For comparison's sake, the difference in TV revenue between the Big Ten and the ACC is $21 million. Even if each school had to pay the full 100% amount, they would still be making a million dollars more per year more in the Big Ten using the current number (which would likely be going way, way up with the addition of more schools/games and a more compelling league in basketball) until 2036 when they stopped making payments to the ACC.

At that is kind of irrelevant though. I just don't really feel like the ACC would survive that move. Since the agreement is between the individual schools and the conference, the schools wouldn't really owe anything when the ACC dissolved.
 

RustShack

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If those schools leave, the ACC still owns their rights. I think you have media contract and grant of rights confused. When Maryland left the ACC, they didn’t have a grant of rights.
 

isucy86

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Maryland did not leave the ACC without paying. The ACC went after Maryland for $52M and they settled with Maryland paying the ACC $31M.
 

RustShack

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But hey if Texas/OU and all the ACC schools manage to get their way out of the GoR, let’s go get us Clemson and Florida St.
 

isucy86

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If those schools leave, the ACC still owns their rights. I think you have media contract and grant of rights confused. When Maryland left the ACC, they didn’t have a grant of rights.

Between the SEC and Big10, if something like 8-10schools out of 14 decide to leave the ACC is there still a conference? Especially if ESPN decides to reopen their ACC Network deal with so much turnover among the top schools.

Rather than try to rebuild the ACC with AAC schools like the Big12 did, my guess is Syracuse, Pitt, BC and Louisville would reach out to the Big12.

IMO what happens with the Pac12 media rights negotiations in 2022/2023 will have a big impact on Big10, SEC and Big12 potential expansion. That could then push the ACC to force ESPN to come to the table early.
 

RustShack

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There’s tons of scenarios and it seems like it’s up to the B1G. Do they raid the Big12? PAC? Attempt to raid the ACC? Then the PAC likely tries to raid the Big12 after to also get to 16+