When do you think you will buy a 100% pure electric vehicle?

[Cyclonepride]

Blackouts are very rare in LA now compared to when I moved here 9 years ago and they were common in summer. Not saying it’s perfect but the grid reliability has gotten much better as EVs and wind/solar have exploded (and record heat most years). There are a lot of disinformation sources pumping out nonsense on it.

If you read the article I posted, California would have to build millions of charging stations (and they're behind on their much more moderate goals) by the time they require people to switch, and those stations would operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. And all that is dependent upon creation of a grid that could sustain that massive increase in load.

 

[RedlineSi]

Aren’t they on the bottom of the car? In Iowa (and MN) with the salt usage, that does t sound like a good combination.

They're sealed.

 

[dmclone]

It is artificially high and the renewable options cannot handle the load, period. Switching that quickly to an all electric fleet on renewables is science fiction. The majority of people would have to switch to public transit as the grid could not support it.

I'm not doubting you at all but I wonder how accurate this really is? In my example, I will do 95%+ of my charging at home. If MidAmerican gave me a discounted rate for charging at night, I could easily change my settings in the Tesla to only charge at certain times. My understanding is that the power grid is most taxed between 2-6pm, during the weekdays, and only during the summer. Would it really be to taxing on the system?

 

[HFCS]

If you read the article I posted, California would have to build millions of charging stations (and they're behind on their much more moderate goals) by the time they require people to switch, and those stations would operate at a loss for the foreseeable future. And all that is dependent upon creation of a grid that could sustain that massive increase in load.

I don’t know, it seems like half the people can already charge easily at home and the public/private chargers around town in ca easily are outpacing demand .

I’m actually living slightly in “the future” on this..,
1 - EVs are already very common where I live, at least 5% and growing. Probably something like 20% of new cars.
2- my grid is rapidly increasing solar and wind to the point where it’s my majority source most days
3- we’ve had many recent record heat years
4- I haven’t had a blackout in over 5 years
5- eight or nine years ago before almost any of this blackouts were very very common in summer
6- people mostly charge at night anyway, especially because rate is cheaper

Understand why I’d be incredibly skeptical of alarmism? I feel like I’m already something like 10% to a quarter of the way through this transition (vs Iowa that is less than 1% due in part to ethanol subsidies) and my grid reliability is improving.

 

[Cyclonepride]

I'm not doubting you at all but I wonder how accurate this really is? In my example, I will do 95%+ of my charging at home. If MidAmerican gave me a discounted rate for charging at night, I could easily change my settings in the Tesla to only charge at certain times. My understanding is that the power grid is most taxed between 2-6pm, during the weekdays, and only during the summer. Would it really be to taxing on the system?

290 million cars on the road, and I think it is 32 out of 33 that would have to switch from fossil fuels to electric (on a grid that was supposed to have trouble handling the current load this summer).

 

[herbicide]

Those are the only people (along with mythical guy who drives 400 miles every day) where an EV actually will be less convenient for a while. Many people with their own garage are dead wrong about convenience and we’ll soon laugh at their anxiety.

A lot of houses in socal don’t have a decent garage and I’ll see ports on side of a house or even by the street (want to know if they have a key or code). One guy in my neighborhood just runs an extension cord across front lawn.

This was 9 years ago but an early adopter in my condo in Chicago got our board to approve him installing his own metered port in the parking garage. I would guess most cities are looking at their building code for new apartment buildings especially.

I see a few designated apartment spaces around LA with chargers but most where there clearly are not. Apartment dwellers with only street parking it really depends where they live, a few areas do have some street parking chargers already that aren’t heavily used but it’ll never be where 100% of street parking has chargers in a dense city.

It's just something that has to be done, and landlords will respond when market demand is there.

When we were apartment hunting in LA two years ago,every apartment building we toured had at least a few spots with chargers installed. These were all nice places, but hardly top of the line/luxury apartments with over the top amenities. Our current building has maybe 10 or 15 spots with chargers for 70 units.

I am an "ex" electrician and can say with confidence two things here:

1. It will not be cheap to provide charging outlets/ports to older houses/apartments that don't currently have the infrastructure to provide the power required (think new service, breaker box, etc) Even if they do, to provide the outlet, wiring, etc I would estimate a few thousand dollars per outlet. In the cases where the housing infrastructure needs modified, it gets exponentially higher.

2. The extension cord running across the yard doesn't meet code, it is not a viable solution for the masses.

We rent out my wife's old house (typical older Des Moines area house), it would certainly fall into the "need more infrastructure" to provide the necessary power. If I had to guess it would be in the neighborhood of $10-25k to get it done. As a landlord, my answer is heck no or your rent just went up $200-400 a month to cover the costs (5 year payback).

Let me be clear, I am certainly in the pro BEV crowd. But I am not going pretend they do not present some challenges.

 

[HFCS]

I am an "ex" electrician and can say with confidence two things here:

1. It will not be cheap to provide charging outlets/ports to older houses/apartments that don't currently have the infrastructure to provide the power required (think new service, breaker box, etc) Even if they do, to provide the outlet, wiring, etc I would estimate a few thousand dollars per outlet. In the cases where the housing infrastructure needs modified, it gets exponentially higher.

2. The extension cord running across the yard doesn't meet code, it is not a viable solution for the masses.

We rent out my wife's old house (typical older Des Moines area house), it would certainly fall into the "need more infrastructure" to provide the necessary power. If I had to guess it would be in the neighborhood of $10-25k to get it done. As a landlord, my answer is heck no or your rent just went up $200-400 a month to cover the costs (5 year payback).

Let me be clear, I am certainly in the pro BEV crowd. But I am not going pretend they do not present some challenges.

The house doesn’t have laundry ? I’m admittedly no expert.

I’ve never heard of a price anywhere that high and contractors charge outrageous rates here for everything.

My unit of ten townhomes from 1970 has the boxes and laundry on other side of home on the floor above garage and people have been getting it installed for about 2k, about $500 total after state and local credits, then their gas savings pays for that in a month or two.

 

[BoxsterCy]

As mentioned before, how often do you drive over 250 miles in one day? For me, that happens about 6-8 days a year. So 2% of the days in a year. If you're a traveling salesperson, you're probably correct at this point.

One time for me this year. Road trip to the Quads with two 365 mile segments.

 

[BoxsterCy]

The house doesn’t have laundry ? I’m admittedly no expert.

I’ve never heard of a price anywhere that high and contractors charge outrageous rates here for everything.

My unit of ten townhomes from 1970 has the boxes and laundry on other side of home on the floor above garage and people have been getting it installed for about 2k, about $500 total after state and local credits, then their gas savings pays for that in a month or two.

I'll have to probably expand my 200 amp box but I'd have to do that to accommodate more electric appliances anyway. Currently have gas drier, gas water heater and gas cooktop. Those are all treading electric so at some point, maybe me or maybe the next owner, will want to have those.

 

[exCyDing]

I am an "ex" electrician and can say with confidence two things here:

1. It will not be cheap to provide charging outlets/ports to older houses/apartments that don't currently have the infrastructure to provide the power required (think new service, breaker box, etc) Even if they do, to provide the outlet, wiring, etc I would estimate a few thousand dollars per outlet. In the cases where the housing infrastructure needs modified, it gets exponentially higher.

2. The extension cord running across the yard doesn't meet code, it is not a viable solution for the masses.

We rent out my wife's old house (typical older Des Moines area house), it would certainly fall into the "need more infrastructure" to provide the necessary power. If I had to guess it would be in the neighborhood of $10-25k to get it done. As a landlord, my answer is heck no or your rent just went up $200-400 a month to cover the costs (5 year payback).

Let me be clear, I am certainly in the pro BEV crowd. But I am not going pretend they do not present some challenges.

That seems high for anything but a house that is borderline in code or doesn't have extensive issues that would need to be addressed.

That said, I didn't say it would be easy or necessarily cheap in all cases. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years or so, most middle class renters would have an expectation that a property have charges available. Not all renters, but properties without it might be excluding themselves from a pretty big chunk of their potential market.

 

[dmclone]

Just saw this today.

https://www.bp.com/en_us/united-states/home/news/press-releases/bp-boosts-ev-charging-network-with-100-million-dollar-order-of-tesla-ultra-fast-chargers.html

 

[HFCS]

That seems high for anything but a house that is borderline in code or doesn't have extensive issues that would need to be addressed.

That said, I didn't say it would be easy or necessarily cheap in all cases. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years or so, most middle class renters would have an expectation that a property have charges available. Not all renters, but properties without it might be excluding themselves from a pretty big chunk of their potential market.

If there is some house that can't even a clothes dryer working I can imagine how it would be some massive cost like that but I'd think somebody would want modern appliances at some point. If it already has a dryer I don't see how it can be much higher than what the townhomes in my association are having done for about 2k/$500 after tax credits. They bring it down a floor from the laundry room/fuse box area, across a ceiling then down a wall. Not easy plug and play like it is for some, but not impossible or cost prohibitive. 4 of the 10 have done it. I don't need to yet since the regular outlet right next to my car is more than fine for my PHEV.

One unit has an EV but doesn't even bother installing the level 2 charger because they have great charging at her office and she never needs it at home. So 4/10 have installed it, 1 has an EV but doesn't need it, and I don't need it because i only have a PHEV. Which kind of shows why I think a lot of this is overblown anxiety. It's already common and happening some places, not some distance future hypothetical. 60% of my 10 unit complex is heading out in some kind of EV and charging solution already. It's not because we're all raging environmentalists, it's because it's $1.30 fuel instead of $5.80 fuel.

 

[cycloneG]

Just saw this today.

https://www.bp.com/en_us/united-states/home/news/press-releases/bp-boosts-ev-charging-network-with-100-million-dollar-order-of-tesla-ultra-fast-chargers.html

Smart, forward-thinking. Established energy companies need to get into the transition now.

 

[exCyDing]

If there is some house that can't even a clothes dryer working I can imagine how it would be some massive cost like that but I'd think somebody would want modern appliances at some point. If it already has a dryer I don't see how it can be much higher than what the townhomes in my association are having done for about 2k/$500 after tax credits. They bring it down a floor from the laundry room/fuse box area, across a ceiling then down a wall. Not easy plug and play like it is for some, but not impossible or cost prohibitive. 4 of the 10 have done it. I don't need to yet since the regular outlet right next to my car is more than fine for my PHEV.

One unit has an EV but doesn't even bother installing the level 2 charger because they have great charging at her office and she never needs it at home. So 4/10 have installed it, 1 has an EV but doesn't need it, and I don't need it because i only have a PHEV. Which kind of shows why I think a lot of this is overblown anxiety. It's already common and happening some places, not some distance future hypothetical. 60% of my 10 unit complex is heading out in some kind of EV and charging solution already. It's not because we're all raging environmentalists, it's because it's $1.30 fuel instead of $5.80 fuel.

Right, but EVs shouldn't even be discussed as a realistic viable alternative for people until every possible edge case is accounted for.

What about the people who live in a 200 year old house without electricity and have to make their 500 mile round-trip daily commute with 10 kids while towing a 25' trailer? How is an EV going to work for them?!

 

[CloniesForLife]

Smart, forward-thinking. Established energy companies need to get into the transition now.

Yep some of these gas station companies would be smart to start transitioning and get that business

 

[HFCS]

Right, but EVs shouldn't even be discussed as a realistic viable alternative for people until every possible edge case is accounted for.

What about the people who live in a 200 year old house without electricity and have to make their 500 mile round-trip daily commute with 10 kids while towing a 25' trailer? How is an EV going to work for them?!

What makes me laugh is how impractical and wastefully expensive it is to own say a Chevy Tahoe (random example but 70k, mostly used for soccer practice, and ridiculous 15mpg in the era of $5 gas) has been for decades and nobody rages that such a thing exists or about how it's not practically priced for 99.9% of consumers who don't have millions sitting around to waste.

Where's all the anxiety about how people are going to afford that? Instead there's rampant anxiety about 38k cars that are almost free to fuel in comparison.

 

[herbicide]

The house doesn’t have laundry ? I’m admittedly no expert.

I’ve never heard of a price anywhere that high and contractors charge outrageous rates here for everything.

My unit of ten townhomes from 1970 has the boxes and laundry on other side of home on the floor above garage and people have been getting it installed for about 2k, about $500 total after state and local credits, then their gas savings pays for that in a month or two.

The house has laundry. The house has a 100amp service, its around 100 years old, which may sound old but is typical for this and many a neighborhood in cities. A typical new build house will have 200 amp service. 100 amp service isn't big enough to run both laundry and one of these chargers, along with all the other circuits you need in your house.

In other words, to just add a wire, breaker, and plug and get it to the garage (detached) you're probably talking $2-3k minimum:

-we're talking about digging or overhead wires (not sure if the city code will allow overhead)
-getting a permit from the city
-wires, breaker, etc
-labor to install

So, now with the above you can charge your car but you can't dry your clothes.

Now for the big whammy:

Adding a new service would often require you to update the entire house to bring it up to code (in these cases that means entire house rewire; to get ground wires). Even if it doesn't, its going to cost more than you think; you gotta have the power company come out to run bigger wires from the transformer to the house, the breaker box is almost certainly going to be a different size and shape, and some rewiring will almost certainly be required.

 

[HFCS]

The house has laundry. The house has a 100amp service, its around 100 years old, which may sound old but is typical for this and many a neighborhood in cities. A typical new build house will have 200 amp service. 100 amp service isn't big enough to run both laundry and one of these chargers, along with all the other circuits you need in your house.

In other words, to just add a wire, breaker, and plug and get it to the garage (detached) you're probably talking $2-3k minimum:

-we're talking about digging or overhead wires (not sure if the city code will allow overhead)
-getting a permit from the city
-wires, breaker, etc
-labor to install

So, now with the above you can charge your car but you can't dry your clothes.

Adding a new service would often require you to update the entire house to bring it up to code. Even if it doesn't, its going to cost more than you think; you gotta have the power company come out to run bigger wires from the transformer to the house, the breaker box is almost certainly going to be a different size and shape, and some rewiring will almost certainly be required.

I guess I was misinformed that if you had a dryer you had most of the electrical work you needed to get a level 2 charger. Makes sense though that you can't just limitlessly add things.

 

[herbicide]

That seems high for anything but a house that is borderline in code or doesn't have extensive issues that would need to be addressed.

That said, I didn't say it would be easy or necessarily cheap in all cases. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years or so, most middle class renters would have an expectation that a property have charges available. Not all renters, but properties without it might be excluding themselves from a pretty big chunk of their potential market.

Extensive issue being older houses that don't have a big enough service to support a charger, probably also don't comply with today's electrical code (read: 3 conductor or ground wires to all circuits)

 

[herbicide]

I guess I was misinformed that if you had a dryer you had most of the electrical work you needed to get a level 2 charger. Makes sense though that you can't just limitlessly add things.

yes the overall service size is the big issue.

With all that said though, I would be willing to bet when this whole thing picks up steam there will be rebates and such to help offset the costs.