Bubu Suing ISU

[rholtgraves]

I guess you missed the last fifteen times this was addressed by multiple people in this thread.

1. Let's not pretend that Bubu just hooked up with a girl while drunk. He took an inebriated "friend" to an empty place, hung out on the phone while his friend raped her (this part has been confirmed by the ALJ), and then went in for seconds.

2. Having sex with someone too drunk to legally consent is rape. So, yes, getting wasted and "hooking up" is a bad decision if the other person was too drunk to legally consent, because it means that you are vulnerable to a rape charge, whether you think that's right or not. It also doesn't matter if you were drunk at the same time - much like drunk driving, it's still a crime even if you're intoxicated.

3. You have no proof he was wrongfully accused.

1. You obviously believe he raped her. And that's fine but don't act like you are being neutral or aren't emotional. You haven't even read the ALJ findings. You have read a couple of pieces put into a newspaper article which also cited the judge saying that the evidence showed they had a history of hooking up and were meeting for sex that night. And also that she never indicated that sex with Palo was unwanted. And communication the next day indicated the same.

2. There is no indication that she was too drunk to consent so you are using pure conjecture to support your position. And if you believe that people shouldn't have sex when drunk that is your moral judgment but not others and it doesn't have anything to do with the law.

3. I didn't say I know if he was wrongfully accused I said if he was he has every right to get justice. But you act like that is not a possibility.

This is what we know in this case from a legal standpoint.
Prosecutor couldn't bring charges because of credibility issues with alleged victim and her mom.
ALJ judge decided accusations were unfounded against Palo based on a preponderance of the evidence and he didn't violate student code.
Leath overturned and so did BOR
But district judge ruled Leath and BOR were in the wrong in handling overturned their decision.
ISU appealed and court rejected the appeal
Palo sued the alleged victim for defamation of character and she settled out of court.

 

[Angie]

1. You obviously believe he raped her. And that's fine but don't act like you are being neutral or aren't emotional. You haven't even read the ALJ findings. You have read a couple of pieces put into a newspaper article which also cited the judge saying that the evidence showed they had a history of hooking up and were meeting for sex that night. And also that she never indicated that sex with Palo was unwanted. And communication the next day indicated the same.

2. There is no indication that she was too drunk to consent so you are using pure conjecture to support your position. And if you believe that people shouldn't have sex when drunk that is your moral judgment but not others and it doesn't have anything to do with the law.

3. I didn't say I know if he was wrongfully accused I said if he was he has every right to get justice. But you act like that is not a possibility.

This is what we know in this case from a legal standpoint.
Prosecutor couldn't bring charges because of credibility issues with alleged victim and her mom.
ALJ judge decided accusations were unfounded against Palo based on a preponderance of the evidence and he didn't violate student code.
Leath overturned and so did BOR
But district judge ruled Leath and BOR were in the wrong in handling overturned their decision.
ISU appealed and court rejected the appeal
Palo sued the alleged victim for defamation of character and she settled out of court.

1. First of all, I don't think you have any clue what I have or haven't read, or my sources of information about this. However - as I said previously in this thread, legally a wife of 50 years can be raped by her husband if she says no and he still has sex with her. A history of sex, or even saying "let's do it" four hours before the event don't matter at all if she either said no, did not consent, or was unable to consent at the time.

I don't "obviously believe" anything. I believe that he made poor choices that put him at risk, at the very least - getting drunk, trusting his buddy, who the ALJ found guilty of rape. You don't think it's a bad idea to go in after your friend just raped a girl and hit that? The ALJ, which you reference, also indicates that she didn't verbally consent - you don't think it possible that Bubu should maybe have looked at this friend and frequent booty call of his who had just been raped and think that maybe she was a little too in shock to say much of anything, let alone no? That's not asking for a lot from him, just some decency. The girl refused to talk about the matter the next morning, it's not like she was saying "wow, thanks for the gang bang."

2. You're, again, not reading what is on your screen. I and almost everyone I know has has drunk sex. But yeah, being too drunk to consent is actually relevant to the law. Whether or not it is relevant to this case depends on who you ask - what I have heard from people off the internet indicates that it was a factor.

3. I have specifically and carefully mentioned several times that it is possible that Bubu is, at the least, guilty of solely poor decision-making. However, it's the right of ISU to say, "And that's not okay with us for a representative to act that way."

 

[MeowingCows]

I don't "obviously believe" anything. I believe that he made poor choices that put him at risk, at the very least - getting drunk, trusting his buddy, who the ALJ found guilty of rape. You don't think it's a bad idea to go in after your friend just raped a girl and hit that? The ALJ, which you reference, also indicates that she didn't verbally consent - you don't think it possible that Bubu should maybe have looked at this friend and frequent booty call of his who had just been raped and think that maybe she was a little too in shock to say much of anything, let alone no? That's not asking for a lot from him, just some decency. The girl refused to talk about the matter the next morning, it's not like she was saying "wow, thanks for the gang bang."

That's a tricky statement, in fairness. No one here knows if Bubu knew at the time that she was raped, and I'm not totally sure if the ALJ directly addressed that claim.

 

[MeowingCows]

Also, did the ALJ say anything about the conversations Bubu and her had the next morning?

 

[DoctorUncle]

Food for thought:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/04/06/this-university-cleared-a-male-student-o

"This case illustrates the manifest unfairness of adjudicating sexual assault in such a manner."

 

[Three4Cy]

Angie, you and I agree on a whole bunch of topics, but I think in this case you may be in your own little world here. I mean.. you are not even reading what I'm writing and inferring a WHOLE bunch of other **** that is completely out there in la la land. Seriously...

I NEVER said there was a conspiracy. ALL I SAID...was that Leath's decision was poorly timed and his delay cost Bubu a year of college basketball. He may have been trying to 'take his time' or think it through, but it doesn't really matter. All that matter is that his decision was delayed enough to prevent a possible transfer. Seriously...that is what we call a 'FACT'. It is my opinion (again..my opinion only, although it may be shared by others on this board) that this 'FACT' is cause for Bubu to sue ISU. Unfortunately, you are very emotional in this discussion and your arguments are getting more and more demeaning to those who disagree with you.

Bubu and his attorney agreed to the time line for Leath to review the case.

On Aug. 30, 2013, Leath overturned that ruling on appeal and dismissed Palo from the team.

Leath addressed some of those time line questions – along with other issues - prior to ISU’s game Saturday against Kansas State at Hilton Coliseum.

“The appeal came to me June 10,†said Leath. “The parties thought it was reasonable I give them two weeks to provide information, and then they wanted two weeks to rebut. So there the first month was gone.â€

Leath said he then had a “long-scheduled, multi-week trip to Africa as part of ISU’s program over there†and did not return until August.

“I wanted to do a thorough, careful job,†said Leath, “so I asked all parties would they have any objections about waiting until the end of the month. Nobody had any objections.

“And Mr. Palo’s attorney talked to (ISU athletic director) Jamie (Pollard) to make sure we would approve a waiver if there were any concerns about him transferring, and we assured him we would. They never asked us for one.

“So actually the time line seemed very fair and reasonable despite the way some people have portrayed it.â€


http://amestrib.com/news/men-s-basketball-leath-addresses-palo-situation

 

[CyDude16]

Bubu and his attorney agreed to the time line for Leath to review the case.

On Aug. 30, 2013, Leath overturned that ruling on appeal and dismissed Palo from the team.

Leath addressed some of those time line questions – along with other issues - prior to ISU’s game Saturday against Kansas State at Hilton Coliseum.

“The appeal came to me June 10,” said Leath. “The parties thought it was reasonable I give them two weeks to provide information, and then they wanted two weeks to rebut. So there the first month was gone.”

Leath said he then had a “long-scheduled, multi-week trip to Africa as part of ISU’s program over there” and did not return until August.

“I wanted to do a thorough, careful job,” said Leath, “so I asked all parties would they have any objections about waiting until the end of the month. Nobody had any objections.

“And Mr. Palo’s attorney talked to (ISU athletic director) Jamie (Pollard) to make sure we would approve a waiver if there were any concerns about him transferring, and we assured him we would. They never asked us for one.

“So actually the time line seemed very fair and reasonable despite the way some people have portrayed it.”


http://amestrib.com/news/men-s-basketball-leath-addresses-palo-situation

But but but he dragged his feet!

 

[jkclone]

It seems easier to lecture sons and daughters for that matter on affirmative consent than to protect them from someone larger and stronger than them or determined to roofie them or whatever. The Bubu situation underscores that you aren't safe even if you are around "friends."

I think for me the part that wories me is the whole punishing people without at least clear and convincing evidence. 50/50 seems too low. We're always going to have problems with sexual assault but I feel like most people are able to recover for the most part. Not that they should have to but they can make the best of a bad situation. When accused and convicted of sexual assault, even just by a university, I feel like there is no recovery. Now while I think the number is small I think in today's climate someone can be falsely accused and convicted even if they are careful with who they engage with. That is what scares me. Like I said punish guilty people but make sure they are guilty.

 

[jkclone]

1. First of all, I don't think you have any clue what I have or haven't read, or my sources of information about this. However - as I said previously in this thread, legally a wife of 50 years can be raped by her husband if she says no and he still has sex with her. A history of sex, or even saying "let's do it" four hours before the event don't matter at all if she either said no, did not consent, or was unable to consent at the time.

I don't "obviously believe" anything. I believe that he made poor choices that put him at risk, at the very least - getting drunk, trusting his buddy, who the ALJ found guilty of rape. You don't think it's a bad idea to go in after your friend just raped a girl and hit that? The ALJ, which you reference, also indicates that she didn't verbally consent - you don't think it possible that Bubu should maybe have looked at this friend and frequent booty call of his who had just been raped and think that maybe she was a little too in shock to say much of anything, let alone no? That's not asking for a lot from him, just some decency. The girl refused to talk about the matter the next morning, it's not like she was saying "wow, thanks for the gang bang."

2. You're, again, not reading what is on your screen. I and almost everyone I know has has drunk sex. But yeah, being too drunk to consent is actually relevant to the law. Whether or not it is relevant to this case depends on who you ask - what I have heard from people off the internet indicates that it was a factor.

3. I have specifically and carefully mentioned several times that it is possible that Bubu is, at the least, guilty of solely poor decision-making. However, it's the right of ISU to say, "And that's not okay with us for a representative to act that way."

For your first point you are right it doesn't automatically mean she consented but it can be evidence towards her consenting that time.

For your third point I disagree. If he did just hook up with her as a public institution we can not just say that isn't acceptable.

 

[SpokaneCY]

I think for me the part that wories me is the whole punishing people without at least clear and convincing evidence. 50/50 seems too low. We're always going to have problems with sexual assault but I feel like most people are able to recover for the most part. Not that they should have to but they can make the best of a bad situation. When accused and convicted of sexual assault, even just by a university, I feel like there is no recovery. Now while I think the number is small I think in today's climate someone can be falsely accused and convicted even if they are careful with who they engage with. That is what scares me. Like I said punish guilty people but make sure they are guilty.

So - just shake it off? Rub some dirt on it Joan and put on your big girl pants?

PLEASE say I'm reading that wrong...

 

[carvers4math]

So - just shake it off? Rub some dirt on it Joan and put on your big girl pants?

PLEASE say I'm reading that wrong...

Sadly I don't think you are reading it wrong. If they can't make the best of a "bad situation" of being raped, and suffer PTSD, unwanted pregnancy, get an STD, commit suicide, turn to drugs, have nightmares for years, have low self esteem that drives them to risky behaviors, can't tolerate a romantic or sexual relationship ever again, well they can always recover.

 

[CycloneErik]

So - just shake it off? Rub some dirt on it Joan and put on your big girl pants?

PLEASE say I'm reading that wrong...

You are not.

 

[jkclone]

Sadly I don't think you are reading it wrong. If they can't make the best of a "bad situation" of being raped, and suffer PTSD, unwanted pregnancy, get an STD, commit suicide, turn to drugs, have nightmares for years, have low self esteem that drives them to risky behaviors, can't tolerate a romantic or sexual relationship ever again, well they can always recover.

I don't know if this is to me because he is on ignore but it is wrong. I mean it like people can still get a job and aren't or shouldn't be outcast like you are if you are accused of rape. It shouldn't happen to anyone. Possibly convicting innocent people just creates more victims. It doesn't make the assault go away. It sucks but we don't go convicting possible robbers to make robbery victims feel better.

 

[LindenCy]

I don't know if this is to me because he is on ignore but it is wrong. I mean it like people can still get a job and aren't or shouldn't be outcast like you are if you are accused of rape. It shouldn't happen to anyone. Possibly convicting innocent people just creates more victims. It doesn't make the assault go away. It sucks but we don't go convicting possible robbers to make robbery victims feel better.

I agree that false accusations of rape are a huge deal, but I would wager that the number of falsely accused are a tiny, tiny number compared to real accusations/number of rapes that go unreported. It's a huge issue on college campuses that is ignored in large part. The whole culture needs to be addressed much better.

 

[jkclone]

I agree that false accusations of rape are a huge deal, but I would wager that the number of falsely accused are a tiny, tiny number compared to real accusations/number of rapes that go unreported. It's a huge issue on college campuses that is ignored in large part. The whole culture needs to be addressed much better.

I completely agree but there seems to be a lot of pressure to lower burden of proof and stuff like that. I don't think most people agree with that but certain groups will put pressure on people especially colleges to find people responsible.

I'm all for improving campus safety but I think that the biggest issue is miscommunication. That is especially magnified with drugs and alcohol. People should feel safe in saying no. People should make sure the other person is ok with it. The problem is a lot of the time this is through non verbal communication which is easy to misinterpret. I know that I stay away from this type of stuff number one because I'm not interested in casual hookups but because I know there can be issues with communication.

 

[IAStubborn]

Bubu and his attorney agreed to the time line for Leath to review the case.

On Aug. 30, 2013, Leath overturned that ruling on appeal and dismissed Palo from the team.

Leath addressed some of those time line questions – along with other issues - prior to ISU’s game Saturday against Kansas State at Hilton Coliseum.

“The appeal came to me June 10,†said Leath. “The parties thought it was reasonable I give them two weeks to provide information, and then they wanted two weeks to rebut. So there the first month was gone.â€

Leath said he then had a “long-scheduled, multi-week trip to Africa as part of ISU’s program over there†and did not return until August.

“I wanted to do a thorough, careful job,†said Leath, “so I asked all parties would they have any objections about waiting until the end of the month. Nobody had any objections.

“And Mr. Palo’s attorney talked to (ISU athletic director) Jamie (Pollard) to make sure we would approve a waiver if there were any concerns about him transferring, and we assured him we would. They never asked us for one.

“So actually the time line seemed very fair and reasonable despite the way some people have portrayed it.â€


http://amestrib.com/news/men-s-basketball-leath-addresses-palo-situation

This is ISU's version of events. Bubu's attorney clearly does not see it that way as they gave alleged multiple times now they got screwed by the timeline. This doesn't make it fact.