Bubu Suing ISU

[Gossamer]

This entire thread is so emotional and I get it. Having been a part of a court case that dragged on for the better part of 4 years, I get the emotional side of things. It is VERY hard to understand how the law works and how Un-emotional it is. Things seem so unfair and it can make you jaded very quickly.

And no matter your intent, you CAN'T be objective if you've been a part of it in some way...

That being said, I'm pretty impressed with our forum for how we've handled ourselves given the topic at hand. I've seen us be more ugly with things that are a lot less important.

 

[VeloClone]

I have seen both sides of things like this. I had a friend in college who was friends with an athlete who raped her. She only confided in us on the grounds that we never tell anyone. She went home, showered and never reported it. It was frustrating as she was such a good person. She never told us what athlete it was but we thought we had enough information that we could piece it together. Thankfully we never did anything about it, but we certainly seriously considered doling out a little justice of our own. I'm glad we didn't because that wouldn't really be justice.

On the other hand I also knew someone whose very promising career was almost destroyed because his very crazy ex-wife attacked him when he went to pick up his infant and she fell to the floor inside her apartment as he tried to keep her at arms length while exiting the door to get away from the situation. She attacked him while he was holding their infant daughter and he was trying to protect both of them. She of course called the police and accused him of assault and battery and he was arrested. The most damning part of the whole thing was that she was about 5 feet tall and a woman while he was over 6 foot and a man.

I also have daughters and a son so I worry about situations like this for all of them.

Yeah, I know I said I was done with this thread.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

The comments make me relieved I only have sons. Every time any athlete is ever accused of anything, so many just immediately rush to attack the accuser. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't want her anywhere near any athlete. Or probably man for that matter.:twitcy:

When the story first broke I was completely against Palo. Then the discrepancies and outright fabrication of evidence came to light, and charges were dropped. But there was still what appeared to be a vendetta happening, with the overturning of the admin law judge's finding of Bubu being (if not innocent) then not guilty of violating the student code of conduct. That overturning by Dr. Leath was based on an anonymous appeal of the judge's decision made to Dr. Leath. And while that is allowable under the code, there was no opportunity in that action for the party involved (Bubu) to argue his case, although the appeal stated the other side directly to Dr. Leath. Then the decision comes to remove him from the team, but not to expel him (or suspend him). Suspension is appealed, and a judge overturns it...and the fight continues. All of these things put together are what put me not necessarily in the Bubu fangirl status, but I suppose I AM in the "there may be cause for a lawsuit here" camp.

I have sons too. They're not athletes, star or otherwise. They're just a bunch of average Joes. But I see what has happened here in the court of public opinion, and I find myself grateful that they escaped teen years and young adult status (mostly) unscathed. I'm also not willing to concede to the assumption that all women are innocent and believable and all men are guilty. And frankly, false accusations and/or fabrication of evidence make it that much harder to prosecute rape, yet there is little to no punishment when people ARE caught out in a lie.

There are those who have argued that everything that has happened, every legal maneuver made, has been by Bubu's choice - and I respectfully disagree. Choices were made by both sides. If I felt I was wrongfully accused, I would certainly choose to fight that accusation by whatever means are available to me, and I think that is what he is doing here.

 

[3TrueFans]

When the story first broke I was completely against Palo. Then the discrepancies and outright fabrication of evidence came to light, and charges were dropped. But there was still what appeared to be a vendetta happening, with the overturning of the admin law judge's finding of Bubu being (if not innocent) then not guilty of violating the student code of conduct. That overturning by Dr. Leath was based on an anonymous appeal of the judge's decision made to Dr. Leath. And while that is allowable under the code, there was no opportunity in that action for the party involved (Bubu) to argue his case, although the appeal stated the other side directly to Dr. Leath. Then the decision comes to remove him from the team, but not to expel him (or suspend him). Suspension is appealed, and a judge overturns it...and the fight continues. All of these things put together are what put me not necessarily in the Bubu fangirl status, but I suppose I AM in the "there may be cause for a lawsuit here" camp.

I have sons too. They're not athletes, star or otherwise. They're just a bunch of average Joes. But I see what has happened here in the court of public opinion, and I find myself grateful that they escaped teen years and young adult status (mostly) unscathed. I'm also not willing to concede to the assumption that all women are innocent and believable and all men are guilty. And frankly, false accusations and/or fabrication of evidence make it that much harder to prosecute rape, yet there is little to no punishment when people ARE caught out in a lie.

There are those who have argued that everything that has happened, every legal maneuver made, has been by Bubu's choice - and I respectfully disagree. Choices were made by both sides. If I felt I was wrongfully accused, I would certainly choose to fight that accusation by whatever means are available to me, and I think that is what he is doing here.

Kinda weird that you named all your sons Joe.

 

[carvers4math]

This is funny because I don't want to have a son because of situations like this.

It seems easier to lecture sons and daughters for that matter on affirmative consent than to protect them from someone larger and stronger than them or determined to roofie them or whatever. The Bubu situation underscores that you aren't safe even if you are around "friends."

 

[Angie]

Angie...I have two daughters and I want to be clear with you that we most likely agree upon the facts that led up to this thread...but when it comes to the topic at hand and whether Bubu has a reason or a right to sue, I believe he does and can understand, from his viewpoint, why.

Doesn't make me like him. Doesn't make me hope he wins.

I should be clear - I don't argue that Bubu doesn't have the right to sue. He does, and he should have that right. I'm saying that I don't see any merit in it legally, and it smacks of self-righteousness in a situation where he should have none.

 

[cyhiphopp]

I should be clear - I don't argue that Bubu doesn't have the right to sue. He does, and he should have that right. I'm saying that I don't see any merit in it legally, and it smacks of self-righteousness in a situation where he should have none.

Thanks, that makes more sense. I guess we'll see if it has any merit or if it just gets thrown out of court.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

Kinda weird that you named all your sons Joe.

Not just Joe - "Average Joe".

 

[IAStubborn]

He had dour words, but he still found insufficient evidence that Bubu violated the code of conduct. I have some pretty dour words for Bubu also...most of us do. We are neither his judges nor his jury.

Those were the posters words not the judges too. And the judge didn't drop on a technicality.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

It seems easier to lecture sons and daughters for that matter on affirmative consent than to protect them from someone larger and stronger than them or determined to roofie them or whatever. The Bubu situation underscores that you aren't safe even if you are around "friends."

Absolutely agree on that point.

Teach your sons to be respectful and your daughters to be...not scared, but suitably cautious.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

Those were the posters words not the judges too. And the judge didn't drop on a technicality.

I'm not sure you meant to be responding to me here. Angie categorized his words as dour, and he did make some unflattering remarks about Bubu in his findings. I agreed that his words were dour, but that he also found insufficient evidence. I said nothing about dropping the case on a technicality...that was a different poster.

 

[ImJustKCClone]

I should be clear - I don't argue that Bubu doesn't have the right to sue. He does, and he should have that right. I'm saying that I don't see any merit in it legally, and it smacks of self-righteousness in a situation where he should have none.

I don't know if there's merit or not, but I lean to the other side from you. However, I believe that the courts should settle it. My thumbs up was for the first half of this post.

 

[IAStubborn]

You know I like you, too.

Here's a brief summary of what I think:

- In the original case, I think Bubu got off on a technicality. I think the victim was an idiot to get drunk and not be near friends, and I think she was an idiot to fabricate the evidence. But I still think a drunk and high Bubu went in for seconds after his friend raped her, but he got off because the victim was dumb. Being drunk and high doesn't mean that you're innocent, however. I think it's icky of him to try to go after her in court, but I guess it's his legal right, so whatevs.

- To me, I think that ISU has the right to grant and take away access to all university resources at any time for justifiable reason. I think it's incredibly unlikely that a man as smart as Leath looked at evidence that was actually insufficient and still made an unpopular decision, that's not logical. I think the evidence he saw was pretty damning, and so he took a long time (some would argue longer than he should have, but he was holding a kid's future in his hands as well as a girl's safety) to come to that decision so as not to misstep.

- I personally think that it should have been an all-or-nothing decision to either kick him entirely off campus and the team, or keep him on both. It's like the whole "allowing religious exemptions for vaccines in school" thing - it seems like a weak approach. But I'm guessing it was based off of not wanting to get sued. That clearly didn't work.

- I think Bubu is angry for the wrong reasons, at the wrong people, and is lashing out. Be mad at your buddy who put you in the situation. Be mad at yourself. But ISU gave him opportunities that he, from all accounts, did not have before he walked onto the court.

- I think a lawsuit based off of "lost wages" is silly. There's just no evidence that indicates he had (or currently has) the talent to even go to Europe to play. He chose not to go to the d-league last year in order to pursue a grudge case against ISU. That's not really their problem.

I think this is an overall good kid who has made some bad choices in friends and influences. I think he did something abhorrent here. Does that mean that's who he is overall? Not likely, but it doesn't excuse what he did.

Reasonable post except that he did not get off on a technicality. The ALJ found it unlikely he knowingly engaged in not consensual sex or raped her. You wernt there, I wasn't, we wernt privy to the conversation that led to that moment or the aftermath. And icKY isn't a crime and the university does have the legal obligation to provide due process. That is the law. But I agree his anger is misguided, but I think yours may be too. Spencer is the only known (or at least likely) rapist here. He should be the one all are mad at.

 

[CycloneErik]

If Bubu were on a treadmill, would his lawsuit take off?

 

[Gossamer]

I should be clear - I don't argue that Bubu doesn't have the right to sue. He does, and he should have that right. I'm saying that I don't see any merit in it legally, and it smacks of self-righteousness in a situation where he should have none.

and that is the emotional part I referred to in my last post. I know how you feel...but the law has no emotion.

You're a good person, Angie...not that you need to be told...and I hope you don't feel I'm being difficult on purpose.

I have to let this rest now. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[IAStubborn]

One point of note, since it seems the delay is crucial in this matter and Leath blew it by waiting. If my memory is correct, somewhere in past court information or media, there is a timeline listed and as part of that Leath communicated with Bubu's counsel on if there were any objections for a later response to allow for full consideration.. I believe it was shown his counsel had no objections. Again, this would need to be verified but I am pretty sure it was something to this effect. If so, it may undermine some of the current suit assertations. He has every right to sue. I think it is a wrong decision to, but he has the right.

Yeah but that was Leath's rebuttal to the accusation of him dragging his feet. And it was murky at best as to that delay actually meaning past the deadline.

 

[IAStubborn]

In fairness, that same logic could be applied to the other side as well: people who can see themselves or close friends in the victim, so as to sympathize to that more than what would be logically fair as well. That definitely goes both ways.

And to say that about those that disagree with you is a pretty crap way to argue imo. Basically, if you disagree with me you have probably raped a girl who was too drunk, because there are no other reason to disagree with me. I found that distasteful.

 

[Angie]

and that is the emotional part I referred to in my last post. I know how you feel...but the law has no emotion.

You're a good person, Angie...not that you need to be told...and I hope you don't feel I'm being difficult on purpose.

I have to let this rest now. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

And I feel the same about you. I think this is a topic that is going to levy some very, very broad responses. Most of us have some investment in the topic. Current data shows that somewhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted. As a woman, that is alarming. As a parent of a daughter, that is even more alarming. I also have a son, and fear of him being unjustly accused - but the rates of men being wrongly accused aren't even published, it's not happening at the same rate as rape and sexual assault.

The entire reason I posted in this thread to begin with is to show that it's not okay to say things like "she was just drunk and regretted it," or "she texted him, she asked for it," or "but they'd had sex before." There had been five posts of things like that before I even responded in this thread. Even if you're not outright condoning rape, and even if you don't mean to, it's latently saying, "but a situation like THIS certainly couldn't be rape." It absolutely can be and is in many situations.

 

[Angie]

And to say that about those that disagree with you is a pretty crap way to argue imo. Basically, if you disagree with me you have probably raped a girl who was too drunk, because there are no other reason to disagree with me. I found that distasteful.

That is absolutely not what was said, nor implied.

I was referencing the dozens of posts in this thread that said, "I guess you've never been in college," "I guess you never got laid in college," and more. They essentially said, "This happens to everyone." I never said that anyone else raped anybody, I said that some of the comments like the above indicate that someone sees something of a situation in their past in this situation (which is EXACTLY what the above statements were saying), and are defensive about it. I don't at all think that is everyone on the other side, but there are some people posting here from a place of, "This is b.s., I've done something similar and it was fine."

Your paraphrase is ridiculous and insulting. You're reading into it things which aren't there.

 

[cyhiphopp]

Yeah, we really should not be arguing the specifics of sexual assault on any message board.