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Clonehomer

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Apr 11, 2006
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As much as it pains me I think Randomfan is right. It's not a difficult process to sift your way through.

1) Adidas pays high profile basketball school Kansas to wear their gear.

2) Kansas recruits high level, possibly NBA bound player.

3) Adidas takes notes of Kansas recruiting high level possibly NBA bound player and realizes said player going to an Adidas school would likely enhance chances of said player staying with Adidas as a pro.

4) Adidas lines the pockets of said player, but makes sure nothing is spoken to KU.

5) KU plays no active role in the lining of the pocket, and while I'm sure they know what's going on have nothing implicating them.


And Kansas is very careful to not ask how players are driving around in new cars until one gets into an accident and a report is filed. Wilfully ignorant.
 

BryceC

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Exactly right. Every school in the nation recruits through AAU programs. Every school hires assistant coaches due largely to their relationships with certain AAU coaches in certain key regions. Every school has a relationship and a contract with a shoe/apparel company. Anyone who thinks that this identical issue is not happening at Nike schools all over America is a fool.

This is 100% true. That said, I'd be extremely surprised if Self didn't know anything about this, and I'd be somewhat surprised if he didn't know details to some extent. I won't have a problem with whatever punishment gets handed down by the NCAA if any.

I'll never blame the players for having their hands out because they are obviously worth it financially. I still wish college kids could sign endorsements and stuff like the Olympic model. I won't even totally blame coaches unless they are the ones making the payments. There is an entire world of this sleazy crap in CBB only because there is so much money involved and the NCAA's insistence on an archaic amateurism model.
 
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RonBurgundy

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Exactly right. Every school in the nation recruits through AAU programs. Every school hires assistant coaches due largely to their relationships with certain AAU coaches in certain key regions. Every school has a relationship and a contract with a shoe/apparel company. Anyone who thinks that this identical issue is not happening at Nike schools all over America is a fool.

I'll give this a big fat LIKE. Great to see you admit that KU is a scumbag cheat school, wallowing deep in the AAU and Adidas cesspool with Louisville, et al. Love that you have already pivoted to the, "Yea, but everyone does it" defense. Nice.
 

rholtgraves

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Sep 25, 2009
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This is 100% true. That said, I'd be extremely surprised if Self didn't know anything about this, and I'd be somewhat surprised if he didn't know details to some extent. I won't have a problem with whatever punishment gets handed down by the NCAA if any.

I'll never blame the players for having their hands out because they are obviously worth it financially. I still wish college kids could sign endorsements and stuff like the Olympic model. I won't even totally blame coaches unless they are the ones making the payments. There is an entire world of this sleazy crap in CBB only because there is so much money involved and the NCAA's insistence on an archaic amateurism model.

And the NCAA isn't even consistent with the rules across sports.
Some sports let the kids sign with agents while in college, i.e. baseball and hockey even though those rules need tweaked as well.
And you could even let kids have endorsement deals with shoe companies if you didn't have shoe company contract with schools. Just do it like professional sports where NCAA signs contract with Nike for example to provide uniforms to all basketball teams that way it doesn't go through a specific school. Then you could let kids do shoe deals with whomever they wanted to and they wouldn't go to a specific school because of a company.
 

randomfan44

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May 30, 2015
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This is 100% true. That said, I'd be extremely surprised if Self didn't know anything about this, and I'd be somewhat surprised if he didn't know details to some extent. I won't have a problem with whatever punishment gets handed down by the NCAA if any.

I'll never blame the players for having their hands out because they are obviously worth it financially. I still wish college kids could sign endorsements and stuff like the Olympic model. I won't even totally blame coaches unless they are the ones making the payments. There is an entire world of this sleazy crap in CBB only because there is so much money involved and the NCAA's insistence on an archaic amateurism model.
First let me say that there is an entire world of this sleaze no matter what model the ncaa uses. No matter what, there will always be people who want to tie themselves to people who are going to make a ton of money. This is true in all large revenue businesses, not just basketball.

Second, let's follow your "that said" statement. Explain to me when and/or how Bill Self would become aware of a payment between a shoe company runner and a recruit. Do you envision the player calling him and letting him know that they just did something that puts their eligibility in peril? Do you imagine that the runner will tell him that they did it? I don't.

Everyone here keeps telling me thst Self HAD to know. Convince me of the specifics of why that is the case.
WHY does he "have" to have know? Provide some specific scenarios. I enjoy a rational conversation about this.
 

randomfan44

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May 30, 2015
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And the NCAA isn't even consistent with the rules across sports.
Some sports let the kids sign with agents while in college, i.e. baseball and hockey even though those rules need tweaked as well.
And you could even let kids have endorsement deals with shoe companies if you didn't have shoe company contract with schools. Just do it like professional sports where NCAA signs contract with Nike for example to provide uniforms to all basketball teams that way it doesn't go through a specific school. Then you could let kids do shoe deals with whomever they wanted to and they wouldn't go to a specific school because of a company.
Uh, just a reminder that having the contract for doing apparel for the NBA means 1 sport and 30 teams.

Having the contract for the ncaa would be dozens of sports at more than 350 schools. And who gets the BILLIONS of dollars for that, the ncaa?!?!?
 

VeloClone

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Jan 19, 2010
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Self is many things but he isn't stupid. Kansas recruits in a pool of players who are very desirable to runners and shoe companies. When you work in an environment where questionable things go on outside of your realm of control, you simply have to work to insulate yourself from them as best you can. Coaches have zero control over whether or not future players get approached by runners or shoe companies. Kansas went so far as to build a new multi million collar dorm building with controlled access to the inside because there were runners, shoe guys and professional autograph seekers getting into the old Jayhawker Towers trying to get at the players.
Yeah, I'm sure trying to keep it clean was their primary agenda. If it was, they could have very easily built a dorm that was in line with other dorms on campus or even secured one of the existing dorms and made it primarily athletes. Instead they built a Taj Mahal as a recruiting tool and sold it as a security necessity.
 

CTTB78

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Apr 7, 2006
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.....
Everyone here keeps telling me thst Self HAD to know. Convince me of the specifics of why that is the case.
WHY does he "have" to have know?.......

Could care less about convincing you that Bill isn't lily white, but one quote from Falmagne regarding DeSousa's recruitment was Self telling him "Coaches are going to offer you this".
How does Bill know other schools are offering 'this' and not have a clue what his kids received?
 

coolerifyoudid

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Feb 8, 2013
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Sorry for the late response; I wanted to wait until I was at home and could use a keyboard instead of my phone. This website is rather uncooperative when trying to post via mobile.

Self is many things but he isn't stupid. Kansas recruits in a pool of players who are very desirable to runners and shoe companies. When you work in an environment where questionable things go on outside of your realm of control, you simply have to work to insulate yourself from them as best you can. Coaches have zero control over whether or not future players get approached by runners or shoe companies. Kansas went so far as to build a new multi million collar dorm building with controlled access to the inside because there were runners, shoe guys and professional autograph seekers getting into the old Jayhawker Towers trying to get at the players.

Do I think that Kansas coaches know that runners and shoe companies are trying to get money to players? Yes.
Do I think that they know when specific players are involved with runners and shoe companies? No.
Do I think that they go out of their way to tell recruits that they are targeting the consequences of making deals with runners and shoe companies prior to coming to school? Yes.
Do I think that some players ignore that advice and go ahead and take money from runners and shoe companies prior to going to Kansas or many other schools? Yes.

As for the specific cases involved right now, I do not know enough details about both sides of the cases to form an opinion as to whether or not the allegations are true? No. I know that we're talking about Preston and DeSousa. Was the money that went to Preston (if it happened) simply funding of an Adidas AAU program that was used entirely for what it was intended? Maybe. Was it used for personal reasons? Maybe. I have have no idea but since we held him out of all games, I don't really care.

As for DeSousa, both he and his guardians claim that they did not receive any money so they will have their opportunity to back up those claims when the ncaa comes calling. Either they will be able to or they won't. If they did take the money them I am fine with whatever penalty the ncaa hands down. If that includes losing The Streak and taking down a Final Four banner, it would stink but so be it. KU basketball is more to me than some streak and a banner and those punishments would not change my enjoyment of KU hoops at all.

I appreciate the response, but you gave a very long answer that still didn't answer my question of whether you believe Self knew anything about this. You went full strawman by asking yourself four questions I didn't ask.

Do I think that Kansas coaches know that runners and shoe companies are trying to get money to players? Yes. - I think everyone knows this since the FBI already stepped in.

Do I think that they know when specific players are involved with runners and shoe companies? No. Really, or are you indicating that you think there is a handshake deal encompassing all of the Adidas kids versus specific ones? Otherwise, this is very naive.

Do I think that they go out of their way to tell recruits that they are targeting the consequences of making deals with runners and shoe companies prior to coming to school? Yes. You mean now they are, since they've been caught, right? Surely you don't think they would have this system in place at the same time as they are telling kids, "Hey we know we're doing something illegal, but here's a pamphlet of the consequences if you continue your recruiting relationship with KU."

Do I think that some players ignore that advice and go ahead and take money from runners and shoe companies prior to going to Kansas or many other schools? Yes. Again, this means that you think KU told recruits not to come to KU because Adidas was offering them money to go to KU.

As for the specific cases involved right now, I do not know enough details about both sides of the cases to form an opinion as to whether or not the allegations are true? No. Here's the question I originally asked. You still can't offer your opinion and choose to stand on the "not enough information" platform.


I'm legitimately confused why you won't just say that you think since Self is so involved in the program that he probably knew about this. Using common sense doesn't make you less of a fan. If this ends up going down here, I'm not gonna bury my head in the sand and think past coaching staffs were incapable of doing this.

Maybe that damning video of Jim Gatto and Bill Self giving a player a big bag of money with the player's name on it and then verbally telling him "this is for going to KU" will turn up one of these days.
 

jcyclonee

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Apr 12, 2006
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Minneapolis
First let me say that there is an entire world of this sleaze no matter what model the ncaa uses. No matter what, there will always be people who want to tie themselves to people who are going to make a ton of money. This is true in all large revenue businesses, not just basketball.

Second, let's follow your "that said" statement. Explain to me when and/or how Bill Self would become aware of a payment between a shoe company runner and a recruit. Do you envision the player calling him and letting him know that they just did something that puts their eligibility in peril? Do you imagine that the runner will tell him that they did it? I don't.

Everyone here keeps telling me thst Self HAD to know. Convince me of the specifics of why that is the case.
WHY does he "have" to have know? Provide some specific scenarios. I enjoy a rational conversation about this.
You have a point. He didn't HAVE to know. However, he's close friends with Adidas dude and Adidas dude is illegally paying players. Where there's smoke...
Yeah, I'm sure trying to keep it clean was their primary agenda. If it was, they could have very easily built a dorm that was in line with other dorms on campus or even secured one of the existing dorms and made it primarily athletes. Instead they built a Taj Mahal as a recruiting tool and sold it as a security necessity.
The flaw in the security system of the new dorm seems to be that homeless, underage girls can get in pretty easily.
 
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aeroclone

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Oct 30, 2006
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I'll give this a big fat LIKE. Great to see you admit that KU is a scumbag cheat school, wallowing deep in the AAU and Adidas cesspool with Louisville, et al. Love that you have already pivoted to the, "Yea, but everyone does it" defense. Nice.

I don't think the everyone does it argument will hold here because of the shoe company goals. They are leading the highly rated high school kids in hopes of a return when the guys go pro. Those recruits are in most cases going to a small group of elite schools. Adidas and Nike aren't spending money on some run of the mill 3 star recruit going to a middle of the pack school, because there is little chance of a return.
 
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ajk4st8

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Mar 27, 2006
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At some point they are going to have to take the 'knowing or not knowing' out of the equation and force coaches or universities to ask questions..

If they aren't going to do that then there is no point in pursuing this any further. (which would be ok with me)
 

BryceC

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Mar 23, 2006
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Second, let's follow your "that said" statement. Explain to me when and/or how Bill Self would become aware of a payment between a shoe company runner and a recruit. Do you envision the player calling him and letting him know that they just did something that puts their eligibility in peril? Do you imagine that the runner will tell him that they did it? I don't.

Everyone here keeps telling me thst Self HAD to know. Convince me of the specifics of why that is the case.
WHY does he "have" to have know? Provide some specific scenarios. I enjoy a rational conversation about this.

Easy example. Self had to know what kind of car Billy Preston was driving. If the thought of how he was driving that vehicle never crossed his mind that's just straight up willful ignorance. And there are probably many more examples like that we'll never hear about because they don't get in accidents.
 

rholtgraves

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Sep 25, 2009
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Uh, just a reminder that having the contract for doing apparel for the NBA means 1 sport and 30 teams.

Having the contract for the ncaa would be dozens of sports at more than 350 schools. And who gets the BILLIONS of dollars for that, the ncaa?!?!?

Yeah, and dole the money out to member institutions accordingly. Who gets money now? TEAMS PART OF THE NCAA!?!?!?!?!
 

rholtgraves

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Sep 25, 2009
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Easy example. Self had to know what kind of car Billy Preston was driving. If the thought of how he was driving that vehicle never crossed his mind that's just straight up willful ignorance. And there are probably many more examples like that we'll never hear about because they don't get in accidents.

You have to assume his family doesn't have money to buy a car...
 

CyTwins

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Jan 20, 2010
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You have to assume his family doesn't have money to buy a car...

You don't think a coach knows this stuff of stuff after spending months and months building a relationship with a recruit and his family? Also wasn't the car from McLemore anyways or am I misremembering that?
 

VeloClone

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Jan 19, 2010
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You have to assume his family doesn't have money to buy a car...
The make and model matter (speaks to value). I have not been able to find anywhere definitively what the car was, but this article suggests they think it was a new/newer Charger.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2017/...-traffic-accident-involving-/?mens_basketball

Depending on how it was outfitted it could be simply a reach for your average college student to clearly out of his price range. That being said I have no idea what his parent(s)' financial situation is.
 

rholtgraves

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Sep 25, 2009
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It wouldn't be an assumption. After the entire recruiting process he should know the family situation very well.

That's what I mean. Just because a kid is driving a car around campus doesn't mean it is some kind of violation going on.