Messingham & Wells switching coaching positions

[FootballinTexas]

So, you are saying a high school player coming into college has already been taught every skill required to gain separation when running a route against a BCS-level receiver, and it's just a matter of tweaking those skills for BCS? Or that a high school player should have all the skills necessary for holding on to a ball after getting slammed by a BCS-level corner or safety? Interesting...

I'd say most of the high school receivers who are good enough to play BCS ball simply use their athletic ability and run away from their defenders most of the time, and rarely have to fight off a corner to get free. The ones who actually have the skill set to fight off a BCS-level defender end up at OU, UT, and the like, not ISU.

Right now, ISU is getting the best players they can, it appears that those players need improvement in their skill sets. Until ISU is winning 9 games a year and walking out with a handful 4-* and 5-* recruits every year, the coaches better be up to the task of imparting those skills.

The coaches that I know here in Texas that have spread teams teach their players skill and fundamentals used at the college and pro level. They teach press release drills, techniques on how to hold your route, high & tight ball handling skills, etc. They go to coaching clinics lead by college and pro coaches to learn from them. They visit their practices to watch drills, etc in an effort to be a better coach and to gain knowledge and techniques to develop D-1 caliber players. Also, because many of the spread receivers are smaller/quicker body types, they have to be good at these skills to be effective....and to get recruited.

If you know your football, there are plenty of 4* and 5* guys that are rated that high simply because of their size. That doesn't always mean that they are players. And you know what else, many of them go to OU, TX, FL to name a few and never see the playing field.

 

[mustangcy]

I really think Wells is getting a bum rap here. Is he Vince Lombardi? No. But who are the players he's worked with? Josh Lenz...Jake Williams...Darius Darks...all GREAT Cyclones but let's be honest here. We don't have high caliber talent at this position...haven't had it in...pretty much ever. Wells has not had the luxury that many of his peers have had...working with NFL talent. NFL talent has a way of making a coach look like a genius...non NFL talent has a way of making a coach look like a bum. I'll go with CPR on this one, he's a solid coach or he wouldn't be at ISU.

 

[KMAC_ATTACK]

"Instinct" is a learned behavior. Its obvious that he is not teaching them to drop passes or run crappy routes. If that's their instinctive behavior they are not D1 football players. And remember, we had some if these issues before Wells got here. This crap isnt new at ISU.

These are major college athletes we are talking about here. They would not be here if
they didn't know how to use their skills during gametime. Plus, this is not Jr. High football where you have to teach a kid how to catch or throw or block. They should already know how to do that. These coaches just "coach up" them to use those skills at
a higher level.

Ball security, route running, playmaking....shouldn't we expect that CPR is only going to scholarship guys that have these abilities at the WR position? If the player keeps resorting back to "bad instincts" under pressure in a game....he's probably not a player or a good learner.

I hear what your sayin...But, would someone please tell me what Messingham did that was so good with our TE position? So good that we've signed another 2 jucos the past 2 years and potentially starter this year? Collin Franklin was a beast before Messingham got to ISU....lets remember that.....and i'm definitely hatin on Mess or lovin on Wells....i'm just saying maybe the coaches determined that a more experienced guy was needed to be working with the egos that come along with the wr position.....look at our group - the egos are evident....my guess is its about respect....

Now look at TE - usually a more low key, get your hands dirty group thats not afraid to go out and work their butts off to get the job done...

Imo this is about personality and experience....Messingham has it and Wells is working his way towards it.

BUT people, lets remember a few things about Luke Wells...
1. Luke Wells is a heck of a recruiter, in the last two years he's signed 6 guys with 5 being 3* (Omoile, Lampkin, Barnett, Hollis, Graham) and 1-2* player (Ecby)
2. Luke Wells came to ISU from ULM where he was a TE coach.

I like wells - i hope this move allows him to go back to a comfortable niche that he can focus on the type of guys that will work for him and he's comfortable with and continue the great work he's done on the recruiting trail.

 

[jbhtexas]

The coaches that I know here in Texas that have spread teams teach their players skill and fundamentals used at the college and pro level. They teach press release drills, techniques on how to hold your route, high & tight ball handling skills, etc. They go to coaching clinics lead by college and pro coaches to learn from them. They visit their practices to watch drills, etc in an effort to be a better coach and to gain knowledge and techniques to develop D-1 caliber players. Also, because many of the spread receivers are smaller/quicker body types, they have to be good at these skills to be effective....and to get recruited.

You don't have to be good at a skill in order to get recruited if you are physically and athletically gifted beyond the majority of the people who will defend you week after week. Sedrick Johnson looked great in HS. What happened at ISU? It's the whole point I made earlier. Just because you go to a clinic or practice a drill doesn't mean you have command of that skill.

I don't disagree that high school receivers exist who possess adequate skills to excel at the BCS level right off the bat. However I believe that the numbers of those who genuinely possess these skills is not nearly as large as you make it out to be.

 

[CycloneErik]

I really think Wells is getting a bum rap here. Is he Vince Lombardi? No. But who are the players he's worked with? Josh Lenz...Jake Williams...Darius Darks...all GREAT Cyclones but let's be honest here. We don't have high caliber talent at this position...haven't had it in...pretty much ever. Wells has not had the luxury that many of his peers have had...working with NFL talent. NFL talent has a way of making a coach look like a genius...non NFL talent has a way of making a coach look like a bum. I'll go with CPR on this one, he's a solid coach or he wouldn't be at ISU.

I think that's fair. I'm choosing to respond to one guy's idea that the players are the sole problem, since players have coaches and such.

You've got a good point that out talent isn't always top-notch.

I believe that jbh will be jumping in at this point (with a solid point that I agree with).....

 

[FootballinTexas]

I'm not a fan of anything related to our passing game last year. The WRs aren't the only symptom, but they sure didn't help at all. Since it didn't seem to matter who was out there in terms of who actually got open or who could catch the ball, I'd say that their coach would have some real questions to answer.

If we want to say that everyone on the offensive side left a lot of questions to be answered, I don't have a problem with that, either. But I think the WRs were particularly poor.

I thought the receiving corps was poor too. I'm just asking why
does it have to be all coaching issues as everyone seem to be suggesting. Maybe these guys were just not that talented of a group. Or maybe Wells did suck. Who knows for sure....not I.

 

[cyhiphopp]

Chances are, the struggles at WR are due to a combination of talent and coaching. We will see how much affect the coaching change has on them this year. If Coach Mess can get the most out of the upperclassmen and some of the underclassmen emerge as options, we will have a good idea that his coaching was a factor. If we see the same out of the SRs and JRs and none of the young guys step up, we can make some more educated assumptions about the coaching and talent.

 

[FootballinTexas]

Chances are, the struggles at WR are due to a combination of talent and coaching. We will see how much affect the coaching change has on them this year. If Coach Mess can get the most out of the upperclassmen and some of the underclassmen emerge as options, we will have a good idea that his coaching was a factor. If we see the same out of the SRs and JRs and none of the young guys step up, we can make some more educated assumptions about the coaching and talent.

How many of the guys that we are expecting to step up were here before Wells? How many of the guys that spent the last couple if years developing under Wells are we expecting to step up?

 

[bosco]

Look at the big picture, we were 10th in passing, 11th in total offense, 11th in scoring
offense, 8th in rushing, 9th in receiving offense. All of this can't be contributed to Coach Wells not doing a good job with the receivers. We were 26 receptions behind CO who was 8th. Did the WR's drop that many or screw up that many routes? If they did........Wow!

The WR performance was poor because the QB couldn't get them the ball in rhythm because the defense were able to disrupt the passing game because the running backs couldn't move the ball because the OL couldn't open holes because the OL coach didn't coach them up because his wife was always nagging him about the dog puking on the carpet.

It's the dogs fault. Let's get a rope.

 

[clonedude]

I've never really cared much for Wells since he's been here. In his interviews on cyclones.com, he just never seemed to know what he was talking about IMO. Obviously I could be wrong about him though.

Hopefully the TE's won't suffer too much with this change.

 

[FootballinTexas]

You don't have to be good at a skill in order to get recruited if you are physically and athletically gifted beyond the majority of the people who will defend you week after week. Sedrick Johnson looked great in HS. What happened at ISU? It's the whole point I made earlier. Just because you go to a clinic or practice a drill doesn't mean you have command of that skill.

I don't disagree that high school receivers exist who possess adequate skills to excel at the BCS level right off the bat. However I believe that the numbers of those who genuinely possess these skills is not nearly as large as you make it out to be.

Exactly! If you re-read my post I stated, "since most spread receivers are smaller/quicker body types they need these skills to get recruited" or possess a foundation of these skills. If you are a 6'3 or taller guy with some speed, you will get recruited based on potential. Potential doesnt mean squat if you are sitting the bench at OU, TX, or FL.

Why practice a skill or a drill if you don't want your guys to possess it? You stay with it until the guys get it! If they can't get it, maybe just maybe they are not players.

I never said the number were large of receivers that possess these skills. In D-1 football though, we shouldn't be giving out $100,000.00 scholarships to guys that don't have any skills! No one would give you a $20/hr job if you didn't possess some type of skill to perform the job.....or would they?

 

[jbhtexas]

Potential doesnt mean squat if you are sitting the bench at OU, TX, or FL.

Those who never played a meaningful down but got a free education along with a BCS bowl ring, or a BCS championship ring might disagree...but that's beside the point...

Why practice a skill or a drill if you don't want your guys to possess it? You stay with it until the guys get it! If they can't get it, maybe just maybe they are not players.

"Getting it" in practice does not equal "getting it" in a game. If everybody looks good in practice, but falls apart when the gametime pressure is on, you need to look at how you are practicing (I think I said that already...)

 

[jbhtexas]

I believe that jbh will be jumping in at this point (with a solid point that I agree with).....

No, no...I don't believe I can attempt this. You've put too much pressure on me, and I might make the wrong point and disappoint you, and I just can't risk that losing one of my two CF buddies...

But I will say that given the current circumstances of ISU FB, it does seem that ISU needs coaches who can improve/add skillsets, as opposed to those who just "coach up" highly skilled players...

 

[tazclone]

Guys, I think there's one thing that real obvious here......

I noticed the last couple years the ISU receivers have become pretty good blockers out on the perimeter....especially with those bubble screen. Remember back to 07 and 08 when those plays went for NO YARDS quite often. Now at least the Clones could spring em for 5-7 yards frequently, because the receiver could engage and lock on his man long enough for the play to develop.

Wells did seem to improve the group in that aspect.

I think we can all agree that a change of some sort was needed, and it appears Wells is more effective when it comes to teaching blocking out in space.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Our WR's were not good bocking. Especially since DBs played them at the line. Plenty of missed blocks or we started blocking too early negating a decent gain. I thnk we had that penalty called 4+ times alone last year

 

[tazclone]

It seems like we should have released the OL coach also if your take on it is correct.

Go back and look at the videos from fall camp last season. You will see Wells working the WR very hard in the ball security drills and in the passing drills. It lies on the coach to get the guys ready to play. Come game time, it's all about the player's execution. CPR has always said, you prepare in practice and execute the plan in games. Coaches coach during the game. Execution lies in the "hands" of the players. Not saying he wasn't doing a good job because I don't know why the change occurred. However, I do know that WR's were not catching the balls and routes were bad. Wells did start as a GA/TE's coach at OU. Maybe he is more comfortable there. Maybe without a senior like Franklin...the TE's need more coaching. I think with a young group, if Wells was the main issue he would have been released.

I also remember after the fall scrimmage when we had a lot of drops that it wasn't that big of deal. Said the guys had the dropsies and that comes and goes but wasn't anything major to worry about. I was disappointed when he said it. Dropped balls should be unacceptable.

 

[tazclone]

"Instinct" is a learned behavior. Its obvious that he is not teaching them to drop passes or run crappy routes. If that's their instinctive behavior they are not D1 football players. And remember, we had some if these issues before Wells got here. This crap isnt new at ISU.

These are major college athletes we are talking about here. They would not be here if
they didn't know how to use their skills during gametime. Plus, this is not Jr. High football where you have to teach a kid how to catch or throw or block. They should already know how to do that. These coaches just "coach up" them to use those skills at
a higher level.

Ball security, route running, playmaking....shouldn't we expect that CPR is only going to scholarship guys that have these abilities at the WR position? If the player keeps resorting back to "bad instincts" under pressure in a game....he's probably not a player or a good learner.

You couldn't be more wrong. The first thing the defensive coaches did when they got here is retrain the guys how to tackle because their form was completely wrong. A lot of D1 players are athletically gifted athletes. They have been successful in high school strictly because they were better athletes. The got by with bad technique because they could out athlete their competition. In particular WR. Look at Sed Johnson. He was very green when he got here. Then there are guys that made position changes. Reynolds never ever played receiver except a couple times a game in JUCO. Do you think as a QB he was taught how to catch, run routes and block? I don't think so. His potential has not been reached yet. Leonard Johnson played QB in HS and it wasn't until the state playoffs that he played DB. He didn't learn the fundamentals until Wally showed up.
And if you don't think this staff is looking for development in players, then you don't pay attention. The staff has commented time and time again how they will have to get guys that fall under the radar and develop them.ISU will rarely out recruit its competition. They have to be better at developing players. Wells has not done a good job and that isn't just my opinion but the opinion of some that would know.

 

[tazclone]

Crappy recruiting by the old staff?

The guys brought in by this staff that played were Lenz and Reynolds. Both did pretty decent jobs last season at their spots. Lenz was good, Reynolds could have been better. The CO game was average for him. The TE was the leading receiver but a lot of things factored into that....pass protection breaking down, shorter quicker routes, chemistry with the room mate.

Look at the big picture, we were 10th in passing, 11th in total offense, 11th in scoring
offense, 8th in rushing, 9th in receiving offense. All of this can't be contributed to Coach Wells not doing a good job with the receivers. We were 26 receptions behind CO who was 8th. Did the WR's drop that many or screw up that many routes? If they did........Wow!

Lenz and REynolds both committed to the old staff and when you run a spread offense that is pass happy, non productive receivers can have that kind of impact on the offense. Running game was decent but had no passing game to take the pressure off.

 

[FootballinTexas]

You couldn't be more wrong. The first thing the defensive coaches did when they got here is retrain the guys how to tackle because their form was completely wrong. A lot of D1 players are athletically gifted athletes. They have been successful in high school strictly because they were better athletes. The got by with bad technique because they could out athlete their competition. In particular WR. Look at Sed Johnson. He was very green when he got here. Then there are guys that made position changes. Reynolds never ever played receiver except a couple times a game in JUCO. Do you think as a QB he was taught how to catch, run routes and block? I don't think so. His potential has not been reached yet. Leonard Johnson played QB in HS and it wasn't until the state playoffs that he played DB. He didn't learn the fundamentals until Wally showed up.
And if you don't think this staff is looking for development in players, then you don't pay attention. The staff has commented time and time again how they will have to get guys that fall under the radar and develop them.ISU will rarely out recruit its competition. They have to be better at developing players. Wells has not done a good
job and that isn't just my opinion but the opinion of some that would know.

There's an old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Maybe hleads them to a dry pond or they were not thirsty. Who knows? But you guys can win this one.

 

[tazclone]

There's an old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Maybe hleads them to a dry pond or they were not thirsty. Who knows? But you guys can win this one.

I guess you didn't want to answer the question about Reynolds who never played WR until he got here nor admit that you were wrong about Lenz and Reynolds being recruited by CPR.

 

[FootballinTexas]

I guess you didn't want to answer the question about Reynolds who never played WR until he got here nor admit that you were wrong about Lenz and Reynolds being recruited by CPR.

If you wish, Reynolds was recruited as an athlete not as a WR or QB. In the coaching world, that means the guy has the potential to play anywhere including DB. And because of that, he had the skills to play WR. They may not have been top-notched....but he had skills.

On your other point, they both signed with CPR's staff, not Chiz. Even then, neither one of them were effective as a freshman. It was this staff (Wells) that helped solidify the skills they already had when the other staff recruited them. But you're right, Chiz's staff "recruited" them.

Now I'm done.