*** Official IOWA STATE vs #19 Clemson Cheez-It Bowl Game(Day) Thread ***

[WhoISthis]

May

This is not a dig at your comment. I’m not here to attack or defend Manning. Just an honest question. Maybe it has already been covered elsewhere.

If Manning is as bad as some contend, how is it that Iowa State’s scoring average was 31.3 points/game. (#44 of 120 fbs teams). In conference games ISU’s offense averaged 34.8 points, or #2 behind Okla‘s 35.8.

In total offensive yards, ISU was 424 yards, or #49 of 120 fbs teams. Within conference games, ISU generated 454 yards or #1 in the conference.

I think I have the stats correct. If correct, why is Manning considered deficient? What are the expectations….top 25 nationally and #1 within the conference? I agree some play calls are head scratchers (all OC have them). But, in looking at the big picture he must be doing something right. I know Campbell is about process. I’m more interested in results. It seems Manning is achieving scoring and offensive yardage results seldom achieved at ISU.…certainly above average nationally. If we lose Manning, there seems a greater risk the offense results will deteriorate than improve.

Simple. It’s because we often scoreboard watch and confuse being easy to defend with ball control. Games against KU types aside.

People are frustrated because of the belief the talent and ability to be better are there. When your offense looks similar whether playing UNI or Clemson, perhaps it’s by poor design.

And it’s all in the context of taking the next step- how to add one or two more wins to each of the last couple years. This is the first year the defense had games in which they definitely cost us. In general their talent utilization has been better, and why we’re still in games when only scoring 13. And I have my doubts we score much against TT or WVU if the defense does its job.

ST also needs scrutiny.

 

[CyVolk]

Simple. It’s because we often scoreboard watch and confuse being easy to defend with ball control. Games against KU types aside.

People are frustrated because of the belief the talent and ability to be better are there. When your offense looks similar whether playing UNI or Clemson, perhaps it’s by poor design.

And it’s all in the context of taking the next step- how to add one or two more wins to each of the last couple years. This is the first year the defense had games in which they definitely cost us. In general their talent utilization has been better, and why we’re still in games when only scoring 13. And I have my doubts we score much against TT or WVU if the defense does its job.

ST also needs scrutiny.

Thanks for your insight. I certainly agree with the comment on ST. It seems it provides an upside opportunity

I don’t know the answer on OC but am concern that switching could result in a step backward. I’ve seen this happen with McCarney (OC left for pros), Rhoads (replaced OC internally) and the one year Manning was in the pros.

 

[WhoISthis]

Thanks for your insight. I certainly agree with the comment on ST. It seems it provides an upside opportunity

I don’t know the answer on OC but am concern that switching could result in a step backward. I’ve seen this happen with McCarney (OC left for pros), Rhoads (replaced OC internally) and the one year Manning was in the pros.

The one year Manning was in the pros wasn't materially different. In fact, that was arguably the year Purdy had the most positive impact on the team's record. Messingham statistically ran Herman's offense as well as Herman.

Whether we need an OC change or not, we need CMC to have conviction it needs a slight adjustment in philosophy.

Maybe that may mean letting Manning be fully in charge. I personally don't think Manning has a good feel or knack for setting up things, but if he's trying to do what CMC wants, perhaps that is why.

But stop pretending you're good at building road grader OLs that can just point to the hole and dominate. Stop pretending we're good at reducing the game to a handful of margin plays- we lose most of those.

 

[CyVolk]

The one year Manning was in the pros wasn't materially different. In fact, that was arguably the year Purdy had the most positive impact on the team's record. Messingham statistically ran Herman's offense as well as Herman.

Whether we need an OC change or not, we need CMC to have conviction it needs a slight adjustment in philosophy.

Maybe that may mean letting Manning be fully in charge. I personally don't think Manning has a good feel or knack for setting up things, but if he's trying to do what CMC wants, perhaps that is why.

But stop pretending you're good at building road grader OLs that can just point to the hole and dominate. Stop pretending we're good at reducing the game to a handful of margin plays- we lose most of those.

 

[CyVolk]

I agree with most of your comments. CMC seems to prefer an Iowa-type run oriented, ball control offense but, as yet, hasn’t had the OL to execute it. The question is whether we will get to that level.

My stats may be incorrect. I used Phil Steele stats. Per his magazine, ISU’s average scoring under CMC is:

2016 27.7 points (CM is OC)
2017 29.2 points (CM is OC)
2018. 26.8 points (CM in pros, 2.5 point deterioration)
2019. 32.2 points (CM is OC)
2020 32.9 points (CM is OC)
2021 31.3 points (CM is OC)

The scoring improvement is primarily due to better playmakers but we definitely went backwards in 2018.

 

[CycloneVet]

Sage? He was barely a 50 percent passer and had more Ints than TDs in every year he played…

I said that Sage was average to decent and got dumbed for it. He did have some talent to work with his senior year, guys that played in the NFL, including an NFL tailback RIP. But like you said more picks that’s tds and a 51% passer.

 

[WhoISthis]

I agree with most of your comments. CMC seems to prefer an Iowa-type run oriented, ball control offense but, as yet, hasn’t had the OL to execute it. The question is whether we will get to that level.

My stats may be incorrect. I used Phil Steele stats. Per his magazine, ISU’s average scoring under CMC is:

2016 27.7 points (CM is OC)
2017 29.2 points (CM is OC)
2018. 26.8 points (CM in pros, 2.5 point deterioration)
2019. 32.2 points (CM is OC)
2020 32.9 points (CM is OC)
2021 31.3 points (CM is OC)

The scoring improvement is primarily due to better playmakers but we definitely went backwards in 2018.

He wants to be ball control, as we should be, which is often analogous with run-oriented. But doing what you do well is ball control.

Anyway, points/possession and yards/point a better measure of ball control.

It is not just the OL that doesn't execute it. We lack in details all over on offense. Our ST often a weakness and we hemorrhage field position. Our defense tends to give up yards on not getting off the field on 3rd down.

 

[WhoISthis]

Sage? He was barely a 50 percent passer and had more Ints than TDs in every year he played…

Should tell you how much of a system and program QB Purdy was.

Richardson is as good as Purdy on this team imo

 

[CycloneVet]

He can't hold a jockstrap to Seneca Wallace and Roesnfels was alot better player also. He was decent Qb that happened to be here when we had 2 NFL running backs and one of the best defenses in the country over his 4 years. These last 4 years are by far the most talent that's ever been in Ames as a whole.

Sage and Seneca each had Ennis Haywood for a year and he was an NFL running back as well. Seneca was better than Brock but Sage wasn’t.

 

[cyclonehomer]

The one year Manning was in the pros wasn't materially different. In fact, that was arguably the year Purdy had the most positive impact on the team's record. Messingham statistically ran Herman's offense as well as Herman.

Whether we need an OC change or not, we need CMC to have conviction it needs a slight adjustment in philosophy.

Maybe that may mean letting Manning be fully in charge. I personally don't think Manning has a good feel or knack for setting up things, but if he's trying to do what CMC wants, perhaps that is why.

But stop pretending you're good at building road grader OLs that can just point to the hole and dominate. Stop pretending we're good at reducing the game to a handful of margin plays- we lose most of those.

It feels like the staff wants to play on offense like they're Iowa, and fall in holes fairly often because of it. Then, they're forced to play faster and with more aggression by game situation and that is routinely when the team scores more frequently and puts up a lot more yardage. I am on vacation so won't put in the work right now, but it is something I want to look into. The players obviously have talent, it won't shock me in two years if 4 different guys from the skill position group alone this season are playing consistently on Sundays. So to me, it's a talent utilization issue, and one that is because the coaches want a philosophy that they doesn't necessarily fit the talent.

 

[t-noah]

All the complaining about Manning likely should include complaints toward Campbell. Campbell ultimately decides the direction of the offense. It's just hard to see the indecision and predictability in the offense, repeatedly.

I just hope for some learning with the offensive schemes and play calling, maybe some 'system' adjustments.

If Manning is as bad as some contend, how is it that Iowa State’s scoring average was 31.3 points/game. (#44 of 120 fbs teams). In conference games ISU’s offense averaged 34.8 points, or #2 behind Okla‘s 35.8.

In total offensive yards, ISU was 424 yards, or #49 of 120 fbs teams. Within conference games, ISU generated 454 yards or #1 in the conference.

I think I have the stats correct. If correct, why is Manning considered deficient? ... I agree some play calls are head scratchers (all OC have them). But, in looking at the big picture he must be doing something right. I know Campbell is about process. I’m more interested in results. It seems Manning is achieving scoring and offensive yardage results seldom achieved at ISU.…certainly above average nationally.

Whether we need an OC change or not, we need CMC to have conviction it needs a slight adjustment in philosophy.

Maybe that may mean letting Manning be fully in charge. I personally don't think Manning has a good feel or knack for setting up things, but if he's trying to do what CMC wants, perhaps that is why.

But stop pretending you're good at building road grader OLs that can just point to the hole and dominate. Stop pretending we're good at reducing the game to a handful of margin plays- we lose most of those.

It is not just the OL that doesn't execute it. We lack in details all over on offense. Our ST often a weakness and we hemorrhage field position. Our defense tends to give up yards on not getting off the field on 3rd down.

Really good discussion here I think. It's way better than just saying Manning needs to go. That is a gut reaction fan kind of thing. It is likely not happening.

Plenty of room for self reflection and improvement. There needs to be some system modifications and that starts with Campbell.

 

[Didley]

It feels like the staff wants to play on offense like they're Iowa, and fall in holes fairly often because of it. Then, they're forced to play faster and with more aggression by game situation and that is routinely when the team scores more frequently and puts up a lot more yardage. I am on vacation so won't put in the work right now, but it is something I want to look into. The players obviously have talent, it won't shock me in two years if 4 different guys from the skill position group alone this season are playing consistently on Sundays. So to me, it's a talent utilization issue, and one that is because the coaches want a philosophy that they doesn't necessarily fit the talent.

And if the philosophy is to win in the margins, then we need to be good in the margins. And we’re not. Our special teams are typically poor. And we lose a lot of turnover battles. And we make a ton of stupid drive killing penalties. When you play like we do you have to execute perfectly. But we rarely do.

 

[BigJCy]

4.9 million viewers for the game last night. Most watched for that particular Bowl since 2013:

 

[cyclonehomer]

Really good discussion here I think. It's way better than just saying Manning needs to go. That is a gut reaction fan kind of thing. It is likely not happening.

Plenty of room for self reflection and improvement. There needs to be some system modifications and that starts with Campbell.

Yeah I'll say that I think moving on from Manning is likely what I would do but absolutely agree it won't happen. There are ways teams with worse talent than this year's Cyclones who have scored more and put up more yardage, and I think you really should be always trying to put up as many of both as possible. So it's up to the coaches to find how to maximize that talent and not be in so many down-one-score-with-the-ball-and-2-minutes-left situations and be able to get off to better starts, both season long and in individual games.

 

[AllInForISU]

Should tell you how much of a system and program QB Purdy was.

Richardson is as good as Purdy on this team imo

Sam Richardson couldn’t hold the jockstrap of our 3rd string QB. Don’t be stupid.

 

[NENick]

Slightly off-topic, but found this in the ESPN recap of the game:
"However, it wasn't enough to earn the Cyclones' their first bowl victory since 2017."

 

[Neptune78]

Did the AD ever announce how many tickets they sold for the game?

 

[GoldCy]

Man, way too kind. It’s just great talking about the Cyclones with people who will listen! I will definitely be more present here on CF next Fall with all the extra free time! Big things still ahead for the program.

Still remembering you winning the contest to be guest announcer when you were in school and was impressed. You need a better spot than on this site. You've got talent. Use it. Appreciate your time with kids. Normally gone before you really value it.

 

[GoldCy]

The one year Manning was in the pros wasn't materially different. In fact, that was arguably the year Purdy had the most positive impact on the team's record. Messingham statistically ran Herman's offense as well as Herman.

Whether we need an OC change or not, we need CMC to have conviction it needs a slight adjustment in philosophy.

Maybe that may mean letting Manning be fully in charge. I personally don't think Manning has a good feel or knack for setting up things, but if he's trying to do what CMC wants, perhaps that is why.

But stop pretending you're good at building road grader OLs that can just point to the hole and dominate. Stop pretending we're good at reducing the game to a handful of margin plays- we lose most of those.

How about stop running up the middle on the first down in every game but one. Might be an indication of having bad tendencies.

 

[WhoISthis]

How about stop running up the middle on the first down in every game but one. Might be an indication of having bad tendencies.

Run or pass, I think the biggest thing is how they all fit together.