What happened to the Defense?

[knowlesjam]

If we are frustrated with our defense I wonder how OU fans feel about theirs?

This. Most of the recent rule changes have made it more difficult for defenses to make plays...targeting, PI requirements off the line, etc. The rule changes make it easier for offenses to score (starting at the 25 is just another). Has ISU been great these past few games...no, but they are still winning games.

 

[dualthreat]

We really only have 1 major weakness on this team: the offensive line. Our secondary could improve a lot, and that would help, but we haven't been losing games because of our defense. We lose because we are not very good at running the football. We've been good enough to win 7-9 games, but if we want to take that next step in 2019 and beyond, we gotta get some big, physical, badass, run-blocking OL.

The rest of the pieces are very close. DL and LB depth the next 3 years is the best it's ever been. Running back, TE and QB are lights out. Wide receivers could really use Butler next year, but will be just fine.

 

[isucy86]

This would be tremendously stupid to do. The way you recruit and play a three man front is vastly different than the way you recruit and play a 4 man front. You don’t just throw an extra guy up there and flawlessly transition.

Generally I agree with your comment about recruiting for 3 vs 4 man line. But every kid we are playing was recruited to play in a 4 man line. We were a 4-2-5 defense until early in the 2017 season. IMO the biggest recruiting difference when playing a 3 man line is size at LB's. You need Guys in the 230-240 range who can run like the wind. Rose, Hummel and Vance all fit the bill.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Johnson is typically our pass rushing DT and Lima is our run defense DT. Johnson likely wouldn’t be in on rushing downs in most 4-3 situations and Lima wouldn’t be in on most passing downs.

That's not true at all. They are perfect compliments to each other. Johnson would be a great 3T and Lima is the perfect NG. He demands two guys and leaves Johnson one on one which is exactly what you want. Yeah, in a 3 man front you swap them out situationally but you wouldn't in a 4 man front.

 

[isucy86]

After about 15 games of playing the 3-3-5 I think opposing coaches finally found ways to attack that defensive alignment.

In the run game- depending on how many guys are in the box either run right at the 3 man line or just off tackle. Cutbacks are also effective when the LB's/Safeties get too aggressive.
In the pass game- keep a back or TE in to block against the 3 man line/occasional blitz. A good QB will find an open receiver if he has 5 seconds. Also we tend to create a picket line around 8 yards down field so QB draws and delayed passes to RB's consistently get 8 yards.

It now time for ISU's coaches to adjust. I do think playing a 4 man line would be good. Make teams prepare for both alignments. I also think against power running teams like Iowa, Texas and KSU that an extra 260 lb guys would make us harder to run against.

The best pass defense is a pass rush. If a team can move the QB off the spot & keep him contained with a 3 man rush awesome. But IMO ISU needs to bring 4 or more guys at least 50% of the time. If the coaches are convinced the 3-3-5 defense is the future, then I think we see size/speed combo as a premium in recruiting LB's. The days of 215 lb linebackers might be a thing of the past.

I will be curious to see Vance's development. He got speed and power to be a pass rushing LB down the road.

 

[Steve]

Sometimes I wonder if some of those pushing for a 4th DL ignore what they are giving up. It would be nice to play with 12 on defense, but the rules don't allow it. You end up giving up the star position which is a huge loss to the defense. Not having a star hurts in pass coverage, run containment, gap coverage, and blitz options. I would much rather have one of our most versatile players on the field as opposed to the 4th best d-lineman.

It's been pointed out by others how much the loss of Ewazurike hurt the defense. His impact on the defense controlling the game when he got settled in during the 4th quarter further confirms his value. The situation is looking better with #50 back in action, but we could use another guy or two with his size and explosiveness. Leo and Bailey have each bring one, but usually not both of these options to the table. DE is such a critical position for this type of defense. I am impressed with how the staff is trying to address this with the two freshman who have good potential as well as a couple of commits who look promising. We need a couple of the young guys to develop and provide quality reps for next year.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Sometimes I wonder if some of those pushing for a 4th DL ignore what they are giving up. It would be nice to play with 12 on defense, but the rules don't allow it. You end up giving up the star position which is a huge loss to the defense. Not having a star hurts in pass coverage, run containment, gap coverage, and blitz options. I would much rather have one of our most versatile players on the field as opposed to the 4th best d-lineman.

It's been pointed out by others how much the loss of Ewazurike hurt the defense. His impact on the defense controlling the game when he got settled in during the 4th quarter further confirms his value. The situation is looking better with #50 back in action, but we could use another guy or two with his size and explosiveness. Leo and Bailey have each bring one, but usually not both of these options to the table. DE is such a critical position for this type of defense. I am impressed with how the staff is trying to address this with the two freshman who have good potential as well as a couple of commits who look promising. We need a couple of the young guys to develop and provide quality reps for next year.

No you wouldn't be. You'd be giving up the third LB. Come on people. Also, there's a solid chance that, situationally, one of those LBs (probably Vance), ends up being a pass rushing end.

The Star isn't coming off the field, though. They haven't come off the field since Ter'ran Benton was here.

 

[isufbcurt]

After about 15 games of playing the 3-3-5 I think opposing coaches finally found ways to attack that defensive alignment.

In the run game- depending on how many guys are in the box either run right at the 3 man line or just off tackle. Cutbacks are also effective when the LB's/Safeties get too aggressive.
In the pass game- keep a back or TE in to block against the 3 man line/occasional blitz. A good QB will find an open receiver if he has 5 seconds. Also we tend to create a picket line around 8 yards down field so QB draws and delayed passes to RB's consistently get 8 yards.

It now time for ISU's coaches to adjust. I do think playing a 4 man line would be good. Make teams prepare for both alignments. I also think against power running teams like Iowa, Texas and KSU that an extra 260 lb guys would make us harder to run against.

The best pass defense is a pass rush. If a team can move the QB off the spot & keep him contained with a 3 man rush awesome. But IMO ISU needs to bring 4 or more guys at least 50% of the time. If the coaches are convinced the 3-3-5 defense is the future, then I think we see size/speed combo as a premium in recruiting LB's. The days of 215 lb linebackers might be a thing of the past.

I will be curious to see Vance's development. He got speed and power to be a pass rushing LB down the road.

Vance is really good at blitzing. I wouldn't be surprised to see him move to Willie's spot next year so both him and Rose can be on the field at the same time.

 

[iowa_wildcat]

When using a 3 man front against a team the likes to throw the long ball, it is necessary to bring the blitz. Otherwise any average QB will look like an All-American throwing the ball.

 

[Steve]

No you wouldn't be. You'd be giving up the third LB. Come on people. Also, there's a solid chance that, situationally, one of those LBs (probably Vance), ends up being a pass rushing end.

The Star isn't coming off the field, though. They haven't come off the field since Ter'ran Benton was here.

Good luck trying to stop the run with a 4-2 defense. You just took a step backwards. I’m not willing to break up the combination of Harper, Rose, and Spears at LB.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Good luck trying to stop the run with a 4-2 defense. You just took a step backwards. I’m not willing to break up the combination of Harper, Rose, and Spears at LB.

You have nothing to back that up, especially considering most of the best S&P rushing defenses are four man fronts not playing true LBs at one spot. If you aren't stopping the run in a 4-2-5, you aren't doing it in a 3-3-5.

 

[LarryISU]

So this thread was started to complain about how our defense was going to cost us the K State game? I think it appropriate to bring back Emily Litella one more time to say, "Never mind."

 

[Bigman38]

The "just play 4 down" analysis is the laziest attempt at figuring out Saturday.

You could play 4 down I guess, switching to a defense they haven't run in months will surely fix their issues.

Who gives Johnson and Lima rests? They rotate a lot as is, I'm not going to pretend I know the skill levels of DT's 3-5 but I bet it's a considerable step down from 1 & 2. I'm a lot more confident in the depth of our LB's that would be losing snaps.

The defense had some serious issues. Ewazurike getting hurt really seemed to coincide with Bailey's production going down. So pressuring with 3 and 1 blitzer isn't nearly as effective. It leaves the secondary, who is down multiple starters, having to cover better for longer.

They gave KSU favorable numbers in the box, which they've done all year, and KSU did a pretty good job up front to be one of the few teams able to actually take advantage of it. The adjustments were slow but there were plenty of changes to formation and plays.

The good news is they figured it out eventually and really have a month to get healthy for the bowl game.

 

[CyHans]

The D has not looked the same since the Eyioma Uwzurike injury. He was showing flashes of being the most disruptive guy on the D-line. That has been a huge loss.

Uwzurike was playing in the second half. Does anyone know if he played first half? If not, when I first noticed he was playing was when it seemed our D started to stiffen up a bit in the 4th.

 

[FOREVERTRUE]

We have and will continue to have problems with teams that run effectively and are willing to make short gain passes. The 3 man front works great against the air raid offense even if they are adept at running because we tend to bring pressure which stops up the running lanes more efficiently. Air raid offenses tend to take a little longer to develop so bringing pressure makes sense, but offenses like Kstate and Texas and even Baylor this year are more effective at getting passes off quicker when under pressure so we don't pressure them and get gashed in the run game.

 

[CascadeClone]

To the OP question:
1. Enyi going out was a really big deal for both quality and depth on the D-Line. And the D-Line makes the LB and secondary look better than they are.
2. Teams adjusting and attacking differently. Power runs and short outlet throws when there is no pressure from the 3 DL.
3. Other injuries - lots of guys dinged. So backups and more tired starters. Poorer tackling is one result of that.

I think it will all be better by the bowl game. Just better be ready to deal with power running and finding a way to get pressure with 3...

 

[TedKumsher]

I feel like people forget that pressure/blitzing is a risk/reward calculation. If you have a good enough opposing offense they will absolutely destroy a blitzing team by consistently hitting the big play from a "hot" route. Blitzes generally need to be unexpected to offset the risk. Blitzing sparingly helps it to be unexpected.

 

[isufbcurt]

Eisworth got hurt on the TD by KSU right before halftime. He grabbed his right hamstring and then didn't play again.

 

[isufbcurt]

To the OP question:
1. Enyi going out was a really big deal for both quality and depth on the D-Line. And the D-Line makes the LB and secondary look better than they are.
2. Teams adjusting and attacking differently. Power runs and short outlet throws when there is no pressure from the 3 DL.
3. Other injuries - lots of guys dinged. So backups and more tired starters. Poorer tackling is one result of that.

I think it will all be better by the bowl game. Just better be ready to deal with power running and finding a way to get pressure with 3...

Enyi played some in the first half but was full go in the 2nd half.

 

[CascadeClone]

Enyi played some in the first half but was full go in the 2nd half.

True, I was mostly referring to the past few games in general.

REALLY glad he is back.