ISU's academic rankings decline continues

[Sigmapolis]

Agree, but when you have scarcity, then you have to prioritize. Leaving the social spending aside, we seem to find money to build a bridge across I80 to help a private corporation with evidently <100 jobs committed, have money to buy $300 dollar brooms for movie producers, and other job creating activities through TIFs or tax breaks etc., when our Universities are producing high paid job opportunities , yet they are first ones on the chopping block. How about Iowa doing something unique and turning Economic Development over to the regents, along with their budget, to take politics out of the equation, and let each Institution evaluate opportunities, based on their expertise in areas of commerce and science?

All these are wonderful ideas, but they are all about how to better manage the decreasing size of the pie going towards growth opportunities instead of towards social spending. There is only so much you can do with a smaller and smaller slice when social spending is taking up more and more of the grand total of the meal every year.

Medicaid was 0% of state budgets before the program came about in the 1960s (the heyday of expanding state universities). It was 6.9% of state budgets in 1990 and 15.9% in 2016 (states, not counting the federal match). Kind of hard to project that forward, but it is probably heading to 20% (or 25%) by 2030 looking at the trends.

Stuff like that eats into support for public universities.

 

[2forISU]

Maybe, but Ohio State, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota Indiana are all larger in our AAU region and outrank us substantially.

OSU has increased it's standards to get in and in return, enrollment has dropped significantly.

 

[Sigmapolis]

OSU has increased it's standards to get in and in return, enrollment has dropped significantly.

Ohio State
---
52% acceptance rate
1240-1450 average SAT range
27-32 average ACT range
3.76 average high school GPA

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/ohio/ohio-state-university-main-campus/admission/

Iowa State
---
91% acceptance rate
1090-1330 average SAT range
22-28 ACT range
3.6 average high school GPA

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/iowa/iowa-state-university/admission/

 

[cysmiley]

All these are wonderful ideas, but they are all about how to better manage the decreasing size of the pie going towards growth opportunities instead of towards social spending. There is only so much you can do with a smaller and smaller slice when social spending is taking up more and more of the grand total of the meal every year.

Medicaid was 0% of state budgets before the program came about in the 1960s (the heyday of expanding state universities). It was 6.9% of state budgets in 1990 and 15.9% in 2016 (states, not counting the federal match). Kind of hard to project that forward, but it is probably heading to 20% (or 25%) by 2030 looking at the trends.

Stuff like that eats into support for public universities.

I agree our health care system is totally out of control. While in a pandemic, it is hard to critisize, but even before the pandemic; I read it was eating up 23% of GDP, the highest in the advanced economies of the world. Imo, This cannot continue and have a healthy growth economy in all sectors. I think I can predict after the pandemic is under control/past , the health care industry will be looking for even a bigger chunk of pie, citing their lack of optional surgeries, # of bed demands of the 'rona etc. It will be interesting how we respond for the future. We as a nation, lately, have a habit of over reacting to a crisis it seems to me (9/11, Iraq war etc.).

 

[Sigmapolis]

I agree our health care system is totally out of control. While in a pandemic, it is hard to critisize, but even before the pandemic; I read it was eating up 23% of GDP, the highest in the advanced economies of the world. Imo, This cannot continue and have a healthy growth economy in all sectors. I think I can predict after the pandemic is under control/past , the health care industry will be looking for even a bigger chunk of pie, citing their lack of optional surgeries, # of bed demands of the 'rona etc. It will be interesting how we respond for the future. We as a nation, lately, have a habit of over reacting to a crisis it seems to me (9/11, Iraq war etc.).

This post is implying why I think all those plans out there to cut national healthcare expenditures so we'll be "just like Europe and Canada" are ultimately kind of dopey. "Cost savings" is "reduced income" for the healthcare sector, and you bet they are going to fight tooth-and-nail against you actually doing that.

How are they going to do that?

Easy -- cutting XYZ means pushing Grandmother off a cliff in a wheelchair, it means your doctors and nurses don't have what they need to serve you and your family as well as they can, and people will side with them. I doubt there is an segment of our society more respected than medicine except maybe the military.

And now you want to CUT healthcare resources right after we are done fighting a global pandemic?

People will side with them. Angrily. Your cost savings won't survive first contact with political and social reality.

To quote Bobby Dylan, "an' I just say good luck."

 

[Lyddea]

Biosystems Engineering has been ranked first or second for it seems like a decade now. Doesn't invalidate your point, just that one third of that triad is already there. And I know from BSE faculty that they care deeply about maintaining that ranking. State funding matters.

Yes I would imagine this is probably already being pursued to some degree, again I am pontificating from afar as it's been almost 15 years since I was walking the corridors of ISU, and ten years since I was living in Iowa.

The challenge here is that excellence -- international excellence -- is required in these fields to maintain AAU status, as not having a med school really puts you behind the eight ball in the metrics for that. I'm not sure how true this is now, but when I was there Iowa had the more prominent Biomedical Engineering program, which is something ISU needed (and maybe has?) to overturn. I hope that they are also leaning into the integration between unique programs like the Agricultural/Vet programs and the rest of the University. There is a lot of strength at ISU but looking at (largely ********, but again -- influential) metrics... the University is facing a challenging future in maintaining AAU status.

I also wonder how much more they can integrate with Des Moines institutions -- seems like a big opportunity that no other major Uni can really exploit.

 

[cysmiley]

This post is implying why I think all those plans out there to cut national healthcare expenditures so we'll be "just like Europe and Canada" are ultimately kind of dopey. "Cost savings" is "reduced income" for the healthcare sector, and you bet they are going to fight tooth-and-nail against you actually doing that.

How are they going to do that?

Easy -- cutting XYZ means pushing Grandmother off a cliff in a wheelchair, it means your doctors and nurses don't have what they need to serve you and your family as well as they can, and people will side with them. I doubt there is an segment of our society more respected than medicine except maybe the military.

And now you want to CUT healthcare resources right after we are done fighting a global pandemic?

People will side with them. Angrily. Your cost savings won't survive first contact with political and social reality.

To quote Bobby Dylan, "an' I just say good luck."

You are probably correct, as I said we as a country have a habit of overreacting. You know I was not advocating pushing Grandma (change it to grandpa and it would be me LOL) over the cliff. But their a lot of layers in the health care system that don't involve doctors or nurses, including government and insurance involvement and hospital administration. How do we target this part of healthcare for efficiences without alienating the public.

 

[Lyddea]

Leave it to the academic in thread to be the only one going on a profanity-laced tirade.

I appreciate your input to this thread, but passion gets in the way of your point here.

Ha, fair enough. To be honest I was 70% responding to what that post meant as refracted through the massive corpus this poster has in the Cave.

I should do better with the profanity.

 

[cysmiley]

Yes I would imagine this is probably already being pursued to some degree, again I am pontificating from afar as it's been almost 15 years since I was walking the corridors of ISU, and ten years since I was living in Iowa.

The challenge here is that excellence -- international excellence -- is required in these fields to maintain AAU status, as not having a med school really puts you behind the eight ball in the metrics for that. I'm not sure how true this is now, but when I was there Iowa had the more prominent Biomedical Engineering program, which is something ISU needed (and maybe has?) to overturn. I hope that they are also leaning into the integration between unique programs like the Agricultural/Vet programs and the rest of the University. There is a lot of strength at ISU but looking at (largely ********, but again -- influential) metrics... the University is facing a challenging future in maintaining AAU status.

I also wonder how much more they can integrate with Des Moines institutions -- seems like a big opportunity that no other major Uni can really exploit.

Isnt that what got Nebraska in trouble, integrating with Omaha Institutions?

 

[Lyddea]

Isnt that what got Nebraska in trouble, integrating with Omaha Institutions?

Good question! Clearly there is a major risk associated with integration that doesn't show up in AAU-approvied statistics. But UNL was going out of the AAU with or without that integration, unless they actually got their own Med school going.

ISU has zero chance of getting their own Med school (unless this has recently changed?), so integration with Des Moines institutions wouldn't be hurting anything AAU-wise, it might just not be enough.

 

[cysmiley]

Good question! Clearly there is a major risk associated with integration that doesn't show up in AAU-approvied statistics. But UNL was going out of the AAU with or without that integration, unless they actually got their own Med school going.

ISU has zero chance of getting their own Med school (unless this has recently changed?), so integration with Des Moines institutions wouldn't be hurting anything AAU-wise, it might just not be enough.

Are you saying that you have info that ISU is not currently meeting AAU criteria, albeit at the bottom of rankings?

 

[Cypow]

Good question! Clearly there is a major risk associated with integration that doesn't show up in AAU-approvied statistics. But UNL was going out of the AAU with or without that integration, unless they actually got their own Med school going.

ISU has zero chance of getting their own Med school (unless this has recently changed?), so integration with Des Moines institutions wouldn't be hurting anything AAU-wise, it might just not be enough.

What could integration with Des Moines University look like? A close partnership between our researchers and their medical school?

Departing into the realm of the purely hypothetical, if a substantially large donation was made by a group of donors, could a small medical school be feasible for ISU? Or perhaps a merger with DMU, in which their facilities are moved to Ames? (Keeping their facilities in WDM would not benefit ISU; AAU only counts medical school funding if the medical school is in the city of the main campus, as Nebraska learned in such a harsh manner)

Essentially, my question is: are the Regent's the barrier to a medical school? (Ignoring funds, obviously. I'd imagine the only way this would be possible is if private donors stepped up.)

Any multi-millionaires out there want to get together and make a $400mm donation?

 

[Lyddea]

Are you saying that you have info that ISU is not currently meeting AAU criteria, albeit at the bottom of rankings?

No! I have no special info, I know nothing more than you do. I can just read the signs, the same as everyone else worried about ISU AAU status long-term. Nothing will happen in the next year or three, but... what other peer Unis are maintaining AAU status without a Med school? And where do they rank on key AAU metrics, like federal funding or the prominence of their programs (esp. engineering)?

I know no more than what I've seen here. We also have AAU status, but that's something that is constantly a worry given we have no Med school.

 

[Cypow]

No! I have no special info, I know nothing more than you do. I can just read the signs, the same as everyone else worried about ISU AAU status long-term. Nothing will happen in the next year or three, but... what other peer Unis are maintaining AAU status without a Med school? And where do they rank on key AAU metrics, like federal funding or the prominence of their programs (esp. engineering)?

I know no more than what I've seen here. We also have AAU status, but that's something that is constantly a worry given we have no Med school.

There's a thread called "ISU Medical School" where we discussed AAU worries. Feel free to check that out. In short, most unis without med schools have top tier engineering departments. ISU has a good engineering department, but not of the same caliber as those specific AAU peers' departments.

 

[cyfanbr]

There's a thread called "ISU Medical School" where we discussed AAU worries. Feel free to check that out. In short, most unis without med schools have top tier engineering departments. ISU has a good engineering department, but not of the same caliber as those specific AAU peers' departments.

Agreed. In my opinion, ISUs best shot at being elite is through the college of engineering. Like you said, it is already a good college, but now the university needs to figure out how to take it to the next level. I am not saying leave all other programs behind, but Engineering is by far the closest to being there. Probably way easier to take Engineering to elite level then to try and open a medical program.

 

[Sigmapolis]

There's a thread called "ISU Medical School" where we discussed AAU worries. Feel free to check that out. In short, most unis without med schools have top tier engineering departments. ISU has a good engineering department, but not of the same caliber as those specific AAU peers' departments.

I know you like that idea, @Cypow, but we basically had three conclusions in that thread...

(1.) Not sure there is a practical (read $$$) way to do it
(2.) Not sure if the regents would tolerate a "duplicate" program with the Carver College of Medicine
(3.) The real bottleneck in the doctor pipeline is with residencies, which adding an ISU med school doesn't fix
(4.) If we were going to do it, we needed to do it 20-30 years ago before a tidal wave of them opened up

Agreed. In my opinion, ISUs best shot at being elite is through the college of engineering. Like you said, it is already a good college, but now the university needs to figure out how to take it to the next level. I am not saying leave all other programs behind, but Engineering is by far the closest to being there. Probably way easier to take Engineering to elite level then to try and open a medical program.

I would add ag and vet medicine to this. This coming from an LAS outsider.

But those are the other programs we are truly elite/world-class in.

Problem is... the AAU criteria discriminates against agriculture and animal science.

It is what doomed Nebraska, and it is what is coming for us.

 

[cysmiley]

No! I have no special info, I know nothing more than you do. I can just read the signs, the same as everyone else worried about ISU AAU status long-term. Nothing will happen in the next year or three, but... what other peer Unis are maintaining AAU status without a Med school? And where do they rank on key AAU metrics, like federal funding or the prominence of their programs (esp. engineering)?

I know no more than what I've seen here. We also have AAU status, but that's something that is constantly a worry given we have no Med school.

I am not happy with the rankings, and want to see our president address this issue, but I have a strong feeling it (not Totally, but significantly,) with the legislature. I was told, according to AAU metrics, the Engineering school remains one of the top tem in the world, albeit #10. On here, told Ag seems highly respected, and the USDA funds the national disease lab to high degree, and the Ames Lab is the premier materials and high level energy labs in the world, especially in renewables, including wind generation (with the EE department) and battery technology (chemistry and materials department), which is also funded heavily by the DOE, federal funds! I know a materials engineer that spends 30% of her time doing peer reviews of papers submitted from around the world on materials science, because she has an international reputation, and is asked by her peer organization to perform that task for the good of the discipline and ISU fully endorses that activity. I now their are other researchers that do equivalent. 400+ million in outside funding is not chump change, it would be interesting to see were that ranks in AAU funding. ISU also receives money from the federal govt for managing the Ames lab and NADL, which might be part of the discrepancy between "outside money" and grant money, dont know how that fits into AAU criteria. But like you say, failure is not immient.

Certainly I want to see rankings improve, and I am not one to kill the messenger. I am sure Dr. Wintersteen is taking the appropriate action to correct the things that she controls, ISU alumni and friends and parents need to deal with inadequacies created by the legislature as appropriate..

 

[cysmiley]

I realize perils exist for Universities to advocate on issues. Perhaps message boards like this can organize to inform legislatures to our informed feelings on issues, as Iowans. I am not into protests etc. but certainly emails etc to our state reps could be powerful.

 

[Cypow]

I am not happy with the rankings, and want to see our president address this issue, but I have a strong feeling it (not Totally, but significantly,) with the legislature. I was told, according to AAU metrics, the Engineering school remains one of the top tem in the world, albeit #10. On here, told Ag seems highly respected, and the USDA funds the national disease lab to high degree, and the Ames Lab is the premier materials and high level energy labs in the world, especially in renewables, including wind generation (with the EE department) and battery technology (chemistry and materials department), which is also funded heavily by the DOE, federal funds! I know a materials engineer that spends 30% of her time doing peer reviews of papers submitted from around the world on materials science, because she has an international reputation, and is asked by her peer organization to perform that task for the good of the discipline and ISU fully endorses that activity. I now their are other researchers that do equivalent. 400+ million in outside funding is not chump change, it would be interesting to see were that ranks in AAU funding. ISU also receives money from the federal govt for managing the Ames lab and NADL, which might be part of the discrepancy between "outside money" and grant money, dont know how that fits into AAU criteria. But like you say, failure is not immient.

Certainly I want to see rankings improve, and I am not one to kill the messenger. I am sure Dr. Wintersteen is taking the appropriate action to correct the things that she controls, ISU alumni and friends and parents need to deal with inadequacies created by the legislature as appropriate..

My understanding is that the AAU significantly discounts USDA funding. Land Grant colleges know this very well. Therefore, leaning more into agriculture may not provide the university with proportional reputational "returns". Not to mention, being a "top ag university" doesn't exactly make potential students swell with excitement. Not that that matters, it's just well known that ag research can be looked down upon by some of the general population.

ISU needs to find a way to do more medical research. If a medical school isn't happening, our science departments need to find more ways to partner with research hospitals. ISU scientists are producing great research, but partnership with physicians and hospitals is a must. And I'm not sure we can limit ourselves to leaning on U of I Hospitals and Clinics researchers.

 

[Cypow]

I realize perils exist for Universities to advocate on issues. Perhaps message boards like this can organize to inform legislatures to our informed feelings on issues, as Iowans. I am not into protests etc. but certainly emails etc to our state reps could be powerful.

This is what I hope comes out of these conversations. Increased awareness, transparent information, and direct action (emails/calls to legislature and university officials).