Playing Colvin - Mac's biggest mistake

RossHallHero

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:biglaugh: Coming from an unbiased poster, obviously.

I totally disagree with Dryburn, and you, but then, I must be biased.


Oh, I'm biased for sure. I think he's a bad coach and I can point to his record to support my feelings.

Those that think he's a good coach also likely believe in unicorns. There's no evidence they exist, but it would be neat if they did.

I'm interested in what parts of his post you disagree with.
 

RossHallHero

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There is only one person who made it so Colvin was reinstated, but it ain't Mac. You can ask him about it, but make it quick because he's skipping country in 2 days.


Also a great point.

If Colvin has had this monumental change, were they going to reinstate him prior to Lucca announcing he was leaving?
 

CloneIce

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On the scale of Mac mistakes (and there have been many), playing Colvin ranks way down near the bottom... if it was even a mistake at all. Way, way too many much, much bigger mistakes to think playing Colvin comes near the top of the list.

He has plenty of real mistakes, this worrying about him playing Colvin is just pointless drama.
 

RossHallHero

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On the scale of Mac mistakes (and there have been many), playing Colvin ranks way down near the bottom... if it was even a mistake at all. Way, way too many much, much bigger mistakes to think playing Colvin comes near the top of the list.

He has plenty of real mistakes, this worrying about him playing Colvin is just pointless drama.


This one speaks to the leadership problems, imo, which is one of the bigger problems with the team.

Mac teams have no leaders. There hasn't been a specific player where you can say, it's X's team. He's the on court leader, the leader in practice and the locker room.

The player who does this is usually the one who takes on the personality of the coach.

Does no one want to take on the personality of the coach?
 

Gitwitit

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Would this have gone to a vote if Lucca was still on the team and Boozer hadn't gotten hurt? Absolutely not. Mac made this move out of desperation. Right or wrong, I bet he will be suspending players in the future "indefinitely" instead of publicly setting a date.
 

Cyrocks

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1) GMac made a mistake at the very beginning when he stated that Colvin would not play until February. There is a very good reason that most coaches will always say indefinitely. Simply put, it gives them some wiggle room, and it puts some more pressure on the offending player, because they really don't know how long they might be out, so the behavior has to change.

2) None of the circumstances of what Colvin did, and what GMac based the original suspension on had changed. Colvin still had walked out and disrespected the coaching staff, his teammates, ISU and the fans. That was all still true.

3) Sometimes in team situations, it is necessary to punish the whole team to make your point. This has been done in sports as well as other areas of life. It is used to put peer pressure on the player or team member who screwed up, if all the other members have to take part in or pay some way with the punishment. Example.....in the military, one soldier goofs up, and the entire unit has to do push-ups. That same tactic can be, and is used with sports team. I'm sure anyone on here who ever played high school or college sports can think of an example where one of their coaches may have used it.

4) When Colvin was first suspended, that very action hurt the other members of the team. Someone was going to have to pick up his minutes, and increase their chance of injury. The possibility of running out of players in the correct position increased. So, from the very beginning, the actions taken were hurting the team.

5) There was at least one other option, if there was really that much concern about just having enough healthy bodies. You have 2 players on the bench who are red-shirted. This would not have been the first time in the history of college sports that a red-shirt has been pulled because of injuries or other circumstances.

6) Once the team got back to campus, there may have been other options available to get "bodies". There are players who practice against the women't team, and knowing BF, I would assume they have some skills. ISU has a large intramural program. I am not sure it would still be true today, but when I was in college, some of the players playing IM's were as good if not better than the players ISU had on the floor. Again, this is only about getting "bodies" to protect yourself in an emergency. Not a great situation, but you only have to protect yourself for a few games, and who knows what you might find?

7) Why is the coach letting one of his better players tell him what he has to do? Guess that tells us who is really running the team. Is GMac so grateful to CB for coming back, that he lets him run the show? Maybe that would explain the 3 point shots that CB takes at the start of each game, and how he does not play inside. Just a thought. No way should a player be telling a coach what he has to do. “When Craig Brackins looks at you and says, ‘Mac, you don’t have a choice,’ I had to play him,â€￾ McDermott said. Are you kidding me? Why did you have to play him? Seriously, most of you do not see the problem with this? Who is in charge?

8) Now that you have made the mistake of lifting the suspension for no reason, why did he have to play? Buckley was playing fairly well, and only played 19 minutes. Is that his limit? He is only in shape to play 19 minutes of a 40 minute game? Dendy only played 15. Buckley was playing a better game last night than your starting pg, even with a couple of boneheaded turnovers. Exactly why did you have to play Colvin last night coach? What did he contribute during his 10 minutes?

9) Now that you have made the mistake of playing him......why the hell was he in there at a critical time in the game? Does that show that he really was just an extra body that you let suit up to protect your bench and your other players? Seems to me like the real reason and only reason that you suited him up was because you thought you might need him to win the game, not to protect the other players, or because you were worried you might be short on the bench. That was all just cover.

This program is in serious, serious trouble, but at least I guess we know who is in charge of it now.

Disagree how? Tell me which point I made that you think is incorrect.

Really? I just can't disagree with you and leave it at that?
 

dbronco7sc

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I haven't read past the first page of this thread. But I take the other perspective. If I were Mac.... I'd feel I owe Craig Brackins the best opportunity at getting into the NCAA tournament.

Craig came back for that probably as much as he came back to work on improving his game. I disagreed with Mac saying it may cost him some games... but he'll sit Colvin until Feb. I think a suspension was warrented... and given Colvin has been doing what he's been asked and Mac says he seems sincere... I think he made the right call.

Edit: And what does it tell your future recruits if your actions say, "I don't care how much you've done for this team (ala Craig), but I'm going to put your college success behind my stance on punishment of somebody who is doing everything I've asked of him since."
 
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Tre4ISU

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1) GMac made a mistake at the very beginning when he stated that Colvin would not play until February. There is a very good reason that most coaches will always say indefinitely. Simply put, it gives them some wiggle room, and it puts some more pressure on the offending player, because they really don't know how long they might be out, so the behavior has to change.
2) None of the circumstances of what Colvin did, and what GMac based the original suspension on had changed. Colvin still had walked out and disrespected the coaching staff, his teammates, ISU and the fans. That was all still true.

3) Sometimes in team situations, it is necessary to punish the whole team to make your point. This has been done in sports as well as other areas of life. It is used to put peer pressure on the player or team member who screwed up, if all the other members have to take part in or pay some way with the punishment. Example.....in the military, one soldier goofs up, and the entire unit has to do push-ups. That same tactic can be, and is used with sports team. I'm sure anyone on here who ever played high school or college sports can think of an example where one of their coaches may have used it.

4) When Colvin was first suspended, that very action hurt the other members of the team. Someone was going to have to pick up his minutes, and increase their chance of injury. The possibility of running out of players in the correct position increased. So, from the very beginning, the actions taken were hurting the team.

5) There was at least one other option, if there was really that much concern about just having enough healthy bodies. You have 2 players on the bench who are red-shirted. This would not have been the first time in the history of college sports that a red-shirt has been pulled because of injuries or other circumstances.

6) Once the team got back to campus, there may have been other options available to get "bodies". There are players who practice against the women't team, and knowing BF, I would assume they have some skills. ISU has a large intramural program. I am not sure it would still be true today, but when I was in college, some of the players playing IM's were as good if not better than the players ISU had on the floor. Again, this is only about getting "bodies" to protect yourself in an emergency. Not a great situation, but you only have to protect yourself for a few games, and who knows what you might find?

7) Why is the coach letting one of his better players tell him what he has to do? Guess that tells us who is really running the team. Is GMac so grateful to CB for coming back, that he lets him run the show? Maybe that would explain the 3 point shots that CB takes at the start of each game, and how he does not play inside. Just a thought. No way should a player be telling a coach what he has to do. “When Craig Brackins looks at you and says, ‘Mac, you don’t have a choice,’ I had to play him,â€￾ McDermott said. Are you kidding me? Why did you have to play him? Seriously, most of you do not see the problem with this? Who is in charge?

8) Now that you have made the mistake of lifting the suspension for no reason, why did he have to play? Buckley was playing fairly well, and only played 19 minutes. Is that his limit? He is only in shape to play 19 minutes of a 40 minute game? Dendy only played 15. Buckley was playing a better game last night than your starting pg, even with a couple of boneheaded turnovers. Exactly why did you have to play Colvin last night coach? What did he contribute during his 10 minutes?

9) Now that you have made the mistake of playing him......why the hell was he in there at a critical time in the game? Does that show that he really was just an extra body that you let suit up to protect your bench and your other players? Seems to me like the real reason and only reason that you suited him up was because you thought you might need him to win the game, not to protect the other players, or because you were worried you might be short on the bench. That was all just cover.

This program is in serious, serious trouble, but at least I guess we know who is in charge of it now.

I'll take this on, or at least try.

1. At the time we had two more players at that position. I would also contend that you guys would have went after him for being soft and not being hard enough and leaving that wiggle room. Either way people were going after him. I probably would have disagreed with the "indefinite" part.

2. I don't know how he disrespected fans. You don't know exactly what happened. The team and coaches were the ones primarily disrespected. If both of them were OK with him coming back, I don't understand what the problem is.

3. I agree but at the same time I don't see losing games because you don't put enough people on the floor during the game as a fair to a team.

4. We had 2 more players to take that spot. Totally different circumstances.

5. How is it fair to either of those guys to pull their redshirt to play 5 min for a couple weeks then they go back to the bench and don't get minutes. That is incredibly unfair to them IMO.

6. I don't necessarily disagree with this. It is a good point, however I can't recall ever seeing an intramural player that is Big 12 capable. That is a good point though. I don't think anyone on the womens practice team is capable.

7. Your point would be valid had it been Craig and only Craig. THE WHOLE TEAM WANTED HIM BACK. Also he didn't say Craig reinstated him. He said the players all wanted him back.

8. I don't neccesarily disagree put I am of the opinion that if you reinstate him he plays somewhat close to where he would normally play. He had Dorr for emergencies. Buckley played well at times but DG did not and SC did not.

9. No one else seemed to play perimeter defense all game. I only listened on the radio so I don't know for sure about that. However TT is one of the least successful 3 point shooting teams in the Big 12 and they seemed to get them at will. We needed a stop and apparently Mac though he was the best option. I guess I have a hard time arguing with a coach trying to win a game.


When we are losing, principle mean nothing to you guys. As soon as there is a chance to make a somewhat controversial move, then you are all over it.

Do you honestly think CC hasn't learned a lesson? DO you think he think's he can get away with it again? I don't think you guys realize how close he was to being removed from the team. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to beg for a suspension instead of expulsion. He does something again and he's gone. If he is not, then I will rip Mac but I don't think it will happen. I just don't get how you guys are that upset with this when the team he walked out on wanted his active. It makes no sense. Since when do you know more than them.
 

Tre4ISU

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This one speaks to the leadership problems, imo, which is one of the bigger problems with the team.

Mac teams have no leaders. There hasn't been a specific player where you can say, it's X's team. He's the on court leader, the leader in practice and the locker room.

The player who does this is usually the one who takes on the personality of the coach.

Does no one want to take on the personality of the coach?

There is a leadership problem. I agree. But when I watch Craig I find it hard to believe he was forcing Mac to do something. Someone needs to step up on the court. DG is the only guys I see EVER act like a leader and that isn't even very often. I agree with this post, I do.
 

Tre4ISU

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Would this have gone to a vote if Lucca was still on the team and Boozer hadn't gotten hurt? Absolutely not. Mac made this move out of desperation. Right or wrong, I bet he will be suspending players in the future "indefinitely" instead of publicly setting a date.


Hell no. Of course it was out of desperation. What would you do if you have 1 guy to play the 1 or the 2 on the bench. I don't know if this happens if any other positions leave or get injured. The fact that it was at the same position I think is key. If Brackins gets hurt instead of Boozer this doesn't happen, at least IMO.
 

Tornado man

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He was aware of his quote...It wasn't about winning or losing. It was about the team, which he had a discussion with each player. They ALL wanted Colvin to play.

Asking the "players" for their opinion is weak leadership. KG, be honest - what player would say they didn't want Colvin's suspension lifted, even if they felt that way? Players look to their coach for rules and order, and respect him for it.
BTW, did Gmac ask for team feedback when he suspended Colvin in the first place?
 

Tre4ISU

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Asking the "players" for their opinion is weak leadership. KG, be honest - what player would say they didn't want Colvin's suspension lifted, even if they felt that way? Players look to their coach for rules and order, and respect him for it.
BTW, did Gmac ask for team feedback when he suspended Colvin in the first place?

Well in that case than the team didn't make the decision did they. Mac did which takes away one argument.
 

kg-cyclone

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Asking the "players" for their opinion is weak leadership. KG, be honest - what player would say they didn't want Colvin's suspension lifted, even if they felt that way? Players look to their coach for rules and order, and respect him for it.
BTW, did Gmac ask for team feedback when he suspended Colvin in the first place?


I'm always honest...Repost:


Here's how things went down...Just going to say this once and leave it alone as it is very obvious we all have our own opinion.

Colvin made a mistake towards the team.

Mac talked to the team and they all said, punish him, but don't kick him off.

Mac suspends Colvin and talks to the press - we all know what he said...Mac needed to know if Colvin was serious about wanting to be part of the team.

Situation changes

Mac talks to the team and they all say, we need him.

Should we question the whole team's integrity? Should the team not be involved in a mistake made against them?
 

Dryburn

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I'll take this on, or at least try.

1. At the time we had two more players at that position. I would also contend that you guys would have went after him for being soft and not being hard enough and leaving that wiggle room. Either way people were going after him. I probably would have disagreed with the "indefinite" part. I really don't see what the number of players we had at the position has to do with anything. Why specify a time period from the start? Once you do that, then you have to stick to it. Saying indefinitely gives you some flexibility. It's the smart thing to do if you are not sure how long the suspension might be, and he wasn't. He said at least until February, which implied it could have gone longer.

2. I don't know how he disrespected fans. You don't know exactly what happened. The team and coaches were the ones primarily disrespected. If both of them were OK with him coming back, I don't understand what the problem is. Yes, the team and coaches were the primary ones disrespected....but so was the school and the fans. Fans pay good money to support this program. He walked out on them and their support too.

3. I agree but at the same time I don't see losing games because you don't put enough people on the floor during the game as a fair to a team. No one wanted to see ISU lose. But there were other options.

4. We had 2 more players to take that spot. Totally different circumstances. I disagree. Once he was suspended, there was still a greater risk to the remaining players who would be taking his minutes.

5. How is it fair to either of those guys to pull their redshirt to play 5 min for a couple weeks then they go back to the bench and don't get minutes. That is incredibly unfair to them IMO. Who said anything about it being fair? Pulling a red-usually sucks, I'm sure. It is not a good thing for the team's future, and it can suck for the player. Sometimes life is not fair......but that has nothing to do with whether this was an available option for adding bodies to the bench.

6. I don't necessarily disagree with this. It is a good point, however I can't recall ever seeing an intramural player that is Big 12 capable. That is a good point though. I don't think anyone on the womens practice team is capable. I don't know. I was thinking back to my college days, and trying to come up with where you could possibly find players. Back in the day, there were definitely some players playing IM's that could have suited up for ISU.......not sure about today. I also made an assumption that the players BF has must have some skills. Some have suggested the student managers. I wasn't too sure about that.....in high school, the student managers are usually the ones who have no skills. I was just trying to come up with ideas. Whoever they got would still have to get permission from the NCAA I assume.

7. Your point would be valid had it been Craig and only Craig. THE WHOLE TEAM WANTED HIM BACK. Also he didn't say Craig reinstated him. He said the players all wanted him back. I don't think that changes anything. The whole team wanted him back......so what? Who is in charge? Honestly, the fact that GMac made his decision partially based on what the whole team wanted tells me a lot about how this program is being run. And we all wonder why the team does not seem to do what GMac wants them to do on the floor much of the time.

8. I don't neccesarily disagree put I am of the opinion that if you reinstate him he plays somewhat close to where he would normally play. He had Dorr for emergencies. Buckley played well at times but DG did not and SC did not. Colvin did not play well either. His contribution was 2 fouls. Buckley was playing well, and SC was not that bad, although his shooting was a little off. The fact that he played Colvin when he wasn't really needed tells me that re-instating him was more about trying to win (and protect your job) then it was about having enough bodies on the bench to finish a game and not get caught short. There was no reason to play Colvin at all.

9. No one else seemed to play perimeter defense all game. I only listened on the radio so I don't know for sure about that. However TT is one of the least successful 3 point shooting teams in the Big 12 and they seemed to get them at will. We needed a stop and apparently Mac though he was the best option. I guess I have a hard time arguing with a coach trying to win a game. I don't have a problem with him trying to win a game.....but that was not the reason that he said he was going to re-instate Colvin. According to GMac at the start of the suspension, winning games was not going to be a consideration. And, according to him when he lifted it, he was doing it so that he would not get into a situation of not having enough bodies on the bench, and not being able to put a team on the floor....not to win the game.


When we are losing, principle mean nothing to you guys. As soon as there is a chance to make a somewhat controversial move, then you are all over it. I have no idea who "you guys" are, but show me a single post where I have ever argued against principle.

Do you honestly think CC hasn't learned a lesson? DO you think he think's he can get away with it again? I don't think you guys realize how close he was to being removed from the team. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to beg for a suspension instead of expulsion. He does something again and he's gone. If he is not, then I will rip Mac but I don't think it will happen. I just don't get how you guys are that upset with this when the team he walked out on wanted his active. It makes no sense. Since when do you know more than them. I honestly don't know if he has or not, but my guess would be (and thinking back to when I was 19) that no, he has probably not learned a very good lesson. He committed a serious infraction in team sports, and he was disciplined severely at first, then ended up getting off with a slap on the wrist. I don't see how what the team wanted is relevant at all, sorry. Most coaches do a lot of things that are not popular with their team. Of course the team wanted him active. Why? Because they wanted to win, and now they have all learned the lesson that for their coach, winning is more important than discipline and principle. Let me ask you this....what if one or two more players violate team rules now? What is GMac going to do then? Honesly, as much as I hate to say it, I think GMac has lost control of this team. The way they play on the floor, and this whole episode shows it.
 

Tornado man

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I'm always honest...Repost:


Here's how things went down...Just going to say this once and leave it alone as it is very obvious we all have our own opinion.

Colvin made a mistake towards the team.

Mac talked to the team and they all said, punish him, but don't kick him off.

Mac suspends Colvin and talks to the press - we all know what he said...Mac needed to know if Colvin was serious about wanting to be part of the team.

Situation changes

Mac talks to the team and they all say, we need him.

Should we question the whole team's integrity? Should the team not be involved in a mistake made against them?

Sorry, didn't read your original post on this. Thanks for the re-post.
And you're right, we all have all opinion.
I interact with a ton of coaches thought officiating athletics - I can't fathom any coach asking his/her players their opinion regarding the discipline of another. I just can't. Especially since Gmac said that a big factor in this was Colvin's disrespect of the coaching staff.
 

acqflisu

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1) GMac made a mistake at the very beginning when he stated that Colvin would not play until February. There is a very good reason that most coaches will always say indefinitely. Simply put, it gives them some wiggle room, and it puts some more pressure on the offending player, because they really don't know how long they might be out, so the behavior has to change.

Agreed

2) None of the circumstances of what Colvin did, and what GMac based the original suspension on had changed. Colvin still had walked out and disrespected the coaching staff, his teammates, ISU and the fans. That was all still true.

Agreed. Can't change the past, only can change actions since the suspension. Reports are there has been a change in CC's behavior and support of his team.

3) Sometimes in team situations, it is necessary to punish the whole team to make your point. This has been done in sports as well as other areas of life. It is used to put peer pressure on the player or team member who screwed up, if all the other members have to take part in or pay some way with the punishment. Example.....in the military, one soldier goofs up, and the entire unit has to do push-ups. That same tactic can be, and is used with sports team. I'm sure anyone on here who ever played high school or college sports can think of an example where one of their coaches may have used it.

Agreed, though not just for peer pressure. This is the coach's call based on all variables.

4) When Colvin was first suspended, that very action hurt the other members of the team. Someone was going to have to pick up his minutes, and increase their chance of injury. The possibility of running out of players in the correct position increased. So, from the very beginning, the actions taken were hurting the team.

Agreed, as supported by your prior point. This is the coach's call based on all variables.

5) There was at least one other option, if there was really that much concern about just having enough healthy bodies. You have 2 players on the bench who are red-shirted. This would not have been the first time in the history of college sports that a red-shirt has been pulled because of injuries or other circumstances.

This was an option, just a bad one based on RS player development and other options available. Colvin was a substantially better option for the team, Colvin, the RS players, etc..

6) Once the team got back to campus, there may have been other options available to get "bodies". There are players who practice against the women't team, and knowing BF, I would assume they have some skills. ISU has a large intramural program. I am not sure it would still be true today, but when I was in college, some of the players playing IM's were as good if not better than the players ISU had on the floor. Again, this is only about getting "bodies" to protect yourself in an emergency. Not a great situation, but you only have to protect yourself for a few games, and who knows what you might find?

Not seeing this as a real option. Identify a potential candidate, educate, condition and prepare them for B12 basketball in a matter of days starting from scratch? You may be right if you compare this option to playing with 4.

7) Why is the coach letting one of his better players tell him what he has to do? Guess that tells us who is really running the team. Is GMac so grateful to CB for coming back, that he lets him run the show? Maybe that would explain the 3 point shots that CB takes at the start of each game, and how he does not play inside. Just a thought. No way should a player be telling a coach what he has to do. “When Craig Brackins looks at you and says, ‘Mac, you don’t have a choice,’ I had to play him,â€￾ McDermott said. Are you kidding me? Why did you have to play him? Seriously, most of you do not see the problem with this? Who is in charge?

I don't believe for a second that this was CB or any team member's decision. It was GMac's. It's funny, I would imagine GMac mentioned the support of the decision from Brackins and the team to demonstrate to the fans that the team was behind Colvin. If he hadn't mentioned the team's perspective, there would be threads flying around about how he has no consideration for their thoughts and assume there is a lack of team support for Colvin.

8) Now that you have made the mistake of lifting the suspension for no reason, why did he have to play? Buckley was playing fairly well, and only played 19 minutes. Is that his limit? He is only in shape to play 19 minutes of a 40 minute game? Dendy only played 15. Buckley was playing a better game last night than your starting pg, even with a couple of boneheaded turnovers. Exactly why did you have to play Colvin last night coach? What did he contribute during his 10 minutes?

Don't agree or disagree. Coach's discretion to manage the game.

9) Now that you have made the mistake of playing him......why the hell was he in there at a critical time in the game? Does that show that he really was just an extra body that you let suit up to protect your bench and your other players? Seems to me like the real reason and only reason that you suited him up was because you thought you might need him to win the game, not to protect the other players, or because you were worried you might be short on the bench. That was all just cover.

Don't agree or disagree. Coach's discretion to manage the game.

This program is in serious, serious trouble, but at least I guess we know who is in charge of it now.


See above. I'll go back to trying to find info on CN that contributes something to me as a Cyclone fan.
 

Spam

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Perhaps the team's self governing, self "judiciating", self disciplining style is indicative of a 'lack of institutional control' with the basketball program (perhaps in a slightly different sense than the NCAA uses the phrase).
 
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kg-cyclone

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Sorry, didn't read your original post on this. Thanks for the re-post.
And you're right, we all have all opinion.
I interact with a ton of coaches thought officiating athletics - I can't fathom any coach asking his/her players their opinion regarding the discipline of another. I just can't. Especially since Gmac said that a big factor in this was Colvin's disrespect of the coaching staff.
Mac obviously had the final decision...For the record, I knew how it was going to look, I stated my opinion before the decision was made (Which was, don't do it), and I had everything explained to me. I think Mac made the right decision...Perhaps he could have left Colvin out unless absolutely needed, I wasn't in Texas, I don't know. Bottom line, this is not as big of a deal as some are making it out to be.